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Lions Tour of New Zealand


vanderark14

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18 minutes ago, Pool Q said:

Both of the Gray brothers are unlucky, as is Watson. If Laidlaw is fit he deserves a mention, he was outstanding against both Wales and Ireland, badly missed against England. Biggar and Halfpenny don't deserve to be in the squad, but the real joke selections are probably Moriarty, Henderson and Payne. A number of England players are entitled to feel aggrieved at being overlooked (not Hartley though), Ireland and Wales are ridiculously over represented in what looks a curiously bloated yet weak selection with too many picked on the basis of reputation rather than form. The All Blacks could watch a tape of the Scotland Wales game at Murrayfield for pure comedy value when you consider Gatland's squad. What Woodward started in 2005, Gatland is doing his best to finish. The Lions feels like a relic from a bygone age, and they are killing it off.

Jonny had an average 6 Nations and there is a lot of competition in the second row. I reckon Henderson will have a good tour and could challenge for the test team.

Laidlaw is far too slow to play scrum-half in a Gatland team.

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10 minutes ago, Chesney TA said:

Jonny had an average 6 Nations and there is a lot of competition in the second row. I reckon Henderson will have a good tour and could challenge for the test team.

Laidlaw is far too slow to play scrum-half in a Gatland team.

I am sure I read that Jonny had the best tackling percentage or highest amount of succesful tackles in the six nations. I could be wrong though

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2 hours ago, vanderark14 said:

I am sure I read that Jonny had the best tackling percentage or highest amount of succesful tackles in the six nations. I could be wrong though

I'm not sure of that stat but as it's an isolated one, it's of no use unless it's used in conjunction with all of the other stats in a multi-faceted position.

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The problem with the selction isn't particular standout players being omitted, it's about the close calls all going against the Scottish guys. Who do you leave out from a list of Sean Maitland, George North, Anthony Watson, Liam Williams, Elliot Daly and Jack Nowell? Who do you leave out from Dan Biggar and Finn Russell? Who do you leave out from Richie Gray, Alun Wyn Jones, Jonny Gray, Courtney Lawes, George Kruis or Ian Henderson? Who do you lose from CJ Stander, John Barclay, Maro Itoje, Sam Warburton and Peter O'Mahony? Who do you lose from Sean O'Brien, Hamish Watson and Justin Tipuric?

The answer in all cases seems to be 'first lose the Scots and then we'll talk'. It's not about specific exclusions it's about the cumulation of all the narrow choices.

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3 hours ago, Chesney TA said:

On a wider point though, I'm one of those people who views the Lions as an anachronism and don't really see the point of the best players from four teams joining together to play one team.

I tend to agree. It's a throwback to the old days that has much less relevance in the professional age.

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18 hours ago, Chesney TA said:

We were lucky to get two tourists. Earls and Zebo both had better Six Nations than Seymour, who has a quiet tournament.

Richie Gray was better than Jonny during the tournament as well so Jonny was never going to go. Particularly as they are behind Launchbury who was left out.

The others in contention were long shots but weren't going to get picked after the debacle at Twickenham and Glasgow's horsing at Saracens.

Hogg won't make the test team. Liam Williams will be full-back. A great finisher but far superior to Hogg under the high ball and defensively. Plus he can pass. New Zealand kick the ball loads so the back three will all have to be safe under the high ball.

Sound to me like you've just completely swallowed up the spin that the non-Scottish press have been portraying over the last couple of months to prepare us for this.

It's insane that Wales have 6 backs in the squad, or that Moriarty gets in for one decent half against England (in his entire international career).

...Taking away the games against Italy (not the best comparison to NZ) where everyone except Wales got a bonus point, Scotland had by far the most dangerous attack. In this year's 6 nations, Scotland were the team that scored the most tries against Ireland, the most tries against Wales (joint), the most tries against France, and even the most tries against England. Only 2 of Scotland's 14 tries weren't scored by backs... Wales were blunt in attack throughout, so how come Biggar is in ahead of Russell for starters?

I genuinely think that Gatland's chosen Biggar to make up for selecting the entire Wales team except him last time. Even four years ago there were numerous Scottish players that could have made the squad (despite the overall team's inadequacies), and we lost almost every jump ball there too.

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31 minutes ago, COLT NY said:

Sound to me like you've just completely swallowed up the spin that the non-Scottish press have been portraying over the last couple of months to prepare us for this.

It's insane that Wales have 6 backs in the squad, or that Moriarty gets in for one decent half against England (in his entire international career).

...Taking away the games against Italy (not the best comparison to NZ) where everyone except Wales got a bonus point, Scotland had by far the most dangerous attack. In this year's 6 nations, Scotland were the team that scored the most tries against Ireland, the most tries against Wales (joint), the most tries against France, and even the most tries against England. Only 2 of Scotland's 14 tries weren't scored by backs... Wales were blunt in attack throughout, so how come Biggar is in ahead of Russell for starters?

I genuinely think that Gatland's chosen Biggar to make up for selecting the entire Wales team except him last time. Even four years ago there were numerous Scottish players that could have made the squad (despite the overall team's inadequacies), and we lost almost every jump ball there too.

The Lions won't be playing like Scotland do so it's an irrelevance to take the style of play and how many tries scored into consideration.

As mentioned by Biffer above, there were a few tight calls and all of them went against Scotland players other than Seymour.

Twickenham and Allianz Park is the reason those tight decisions went against the players who missed out.

 

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2 hours ago, biffer said:

The problem with the selction isn't particular standout players being omitted, it's about the close calls all going against the Scottish guys. Who do you leave out from a list of Sean Maitland, George North, Anthony Watson, Liam Williams, Elliot Daly and Jack Nowell? Who do you leave out from Dan Biggar and Finn Russell? Who do you leave out from Richie Gray, Alun Wyn Jones, Jonny Gray, Courtney Lawes, George Kruis or Ian Henderson? Who do you lose from CJ Stander, John Barclay, Maro Itoje, Sam Warburton and Peter O'Mahony? Who do you lose from Sean O'Brien, Hamish Watson and Justin Tipuric?

The answer in all cases seems to be 'first lose the Scots and then we'll talk'. It's not about specific exclusions it's about the cumulation of all the narrow choices.

Completely agree.  There wasn't a single Scot on the committee performing the squad selection process.  That certainly didn't help the close calls that I suspect you've done a good job of listing above. On the basis Ben Youngs is going, I think you could add Laidlaw to the close calls list given he can pay stand-off and is one of the best kickers out there.

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2 hours ago, COLT NY said:

Sound to me like you've just completely swallowed up the spin that the non-Scottish press have been portraying over the last couple of months to prepare us for this.

It's insane that Wales have 6 backs in the squad, or that Moriarty gets in for one decent half against England (in his entire international career).

...Taking away the games against Italy (not the best comparison to NZ) where everyone except Wales got a bonus point, Scotland had by far the most dangerous attack. In this year's 6 nations, Scotland were the team that scored the most tries against Ireland, the most tries against Wales (joint), the most tries against France, and even the most tries against England. Only 2 of Scotland's 14 tries weren't scored by backs... Wales were blunt in attack throughout, so how come Biggar is in ahead of Russell for starters?

I genuinely think that Gatland's chosen Biggar to make up for selecting the entire Wales team except him last time. Even four years ago there were numerous Scottish players that could have made the squad (despite the overall team's inadequacies), and we lost almost every jump ball there too.

It's very similar to a (very bad) article by a guy called David Barnes I read earlier. Nothing can be read into the fact that Scotland beat Wales and Ireland as those are one-off games, whereas Wales and Ireland have been 'consistently competitive' over recent seasons. Except against Scotland this year when they weren't, but that's different obviously. Any games Scotland won were because the opposition had an off day, not because Scotland played that well. And anyway look how poor Scotland were against England and how awful Glasgow were against Saracens. Those were one-off games of course, but a lot can be read into those apparently, because that's different too. If even a couple more Scots had made it out of Laidlaw, Russell, Jonny Gray (who it is wrong to say had an average 6N) or Richie Gray and Watson, I doubt anyone would have said much if anything. Biffer sums up what appears to have gone on rather well.

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3 hours ago, COLT NY said:

Sound to me like you've just completely swallowed up the spin that the non-Scottish press have been portraying over the last couple of months to prepare us for this.

It's insane that Wales have 6 backs in the squad, or that Moriarty gets in for one decent half against England (in his entire international career).

...Taking away the games against Italy (not the best comparison to NZ) where everyone except Wales got a bonus point, Scotland had by far the most dangerous attack. In this year's 6 nations, Scotland were the team that scored the most tries against Ireland, the most tries against Wales (joint), the most tries against France, and even the most tries against England. Only 2 of Scotland's 14 tries weren't scored by backs... Wales were blunt in attack throughout, so how come Biggar is in ahead of Russell for starters?

I genuinely think that Gatland's chosen Biggar to make up for selecting the entire Wales team except him last time. Even four years ago there were numerous Scottish players that could have made the squad (despite the overall team's inadequacies), and we lost almost every jump ball there too.

 

52 minutes ago, Pool Q said:

It's very similar to a (very bad) article by a guy called David Barnes I read earlier. Nothing can be read into the fact that Scotland beat Wales and Ireland as those are one-off games, whereas Wales and Ireland have been 'consistently competitive' over recent seasons. Except against Scotland this year when they weren't, but that's different obviously. Any games Scotland won were because the opposition had an off day, not because Scotland played that well. And anyway look how poor Scotland were against England and how awful Glasgow were against Saracens. Those were one-off games of course, but a lot can be read into those apparently, because that's different too. If even a couple more Scots had made it out of Laidlaw, Russell, Jonny Gray (who it is wrong to say had an average 6N) or Richie Gray and Watson, I doubt anyone would have said much if anything. Biffer sums up what appears to have gone on rather well.

completely agree with this

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There have been further updates from Gatland and Farrell regarding their selections. Gatland wasn't aware there were so few Scots in the selection (a pretty obvious lie) and both of them parrot the familiar England and Saracens games line. Gatland goes further suggesting that the Scots don't know how to win away from home, pointing out (helpfully) that a Lions tour will involve playing matches away from home. Wales were poor in their three away games this season, while Ireland were so bad at Murrayfield they somehow contrived to get beaten by Scotland. But he doesn't mention that. Farrell comes out with a couple of stoaters, advising us that Scotland have overachieved this season, with the team performing collectively well despite not having any good players (I paraphrase, but not much). He is pleased that the squad is full of winners, who are not happy to accept defeat and don't feel that 'just being in the tour party is good enough'. Fill in the blanks yourself regarding how Farrell views the current Scotland squad.

Edited by Pool Q
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Yeah the away games thing is pish. Wales haven't won a Southern Hemisphere test in decades, the Welsh teams haven't got out of a European cup group in years and the two players from Wales who play outside the principality are North, and Saints have won one game away from home since the 1st of January (and took a few grubbing a in Europe) and halfpenny, who plays for Toulon, who haven't won away from home since October.

and as for the consistency thing, Scotland, Wales and Ireland have both won five games out of ten in the six nations over the last two years. England have won nine out of ten, so no problems with them making up the bulk of the squad, it's just that Wales in particular are over represented.

Edited by biffer
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  • 3 weeks later...

Laidlaw has been called up as a replacement for Ben Youngs....

 

Edited for this horrendous news..

Leicester Tigers scrum-half Ben Youngs has withdrawn from the squad for the British & Irish Lions tour to New Zealand for family reasons.
The wife of Ben's brother Tom has been battling cancer for three years and the family has now received the devastating news that the illness is terminal.

Ben Youngs was included in a 41-man squad for his second tour with the British & Irish Lions but this weekend informed head coach Warren Gatland of his decision to remain at home.

"We are a very close family and, as I am sure everyone can respect, time is now precious together," said Ben.

"The most important thing for me at this difficult time is to be able to offer as much support as I can to Tom and his family in the remaining time we all have together.

Edited by Tartan_Don
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Pleased for Laidlaw, and hope he has a good tour.  But it's a bad way to get a place on the tour,  and a shame for Youngs. Hopefully all goes well for his sister-in-law.

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  • 4 weeks later...
Guest BlueGaz
2 minutes ago, hannibal smith said:

Watched the second half and was a good watch. The Blues deserved it and was a cracking try to win it in the last 5 minutes. 

Did Halfpenny play well?

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4 minutes ago, BlueGaz said:

Did Halfpenny play well?

yeah i thought he played and was pretty clinical with his kicking.

Poor discipline and too many mistakes cost them. Overthrowing a line out on the Blues 5 yard line with 80 minutes on the clock summed it up. 

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