Martin McGuinness

[phart]

To be fair the goals of the PIRA/INLA/OIRA/IRSP have been shown to be subverted by british intelligence. Had a couple of whistleblowers in the last few years in conjunction with released documents which indicated anyone looking likely to solve the crisis (on either side) were taken out.

Craig Smellie who was in charge of the operation being named in letters as being ba' deep in it.

[Squirrelhumper]

On 3/22/2017 at 10:06 PM, MacTaz said:

 They were actually at war with the British Government , but let's ignore that for now. If they were at war with the British Armed  Forces why did they pit bombs in litter bins in city centres (Warrigton) Why did they plan to bomb a Tourist attraction in GIBRALTAR ?  Why did they bomb Pubs full of civilians in Birmingham and Guildford ? They also killed German civilians IN GERMANY and Australian tourists in Holland.  I can accept wearing a uniform made me a target  no problems , bring it on paddy . But There is no excuse for their campaign against the British public .  So the context is not much of an argument.  They bleat about Bloody Sunday (When in fact McGuiness himself admitted there were IRA guns on the street that day.) but believe it's aceptable to bomb civiians . As always with PIRA....... double standards. They wanted all their convicted terrorists released which they got and pardons for others on the run, but want British Soldiers dragged through the courts for supposed crimes 40 years ago. How does that work?  They may have had a case in 1916 but they lost the argument post 1969  given that British troops were initially deployed to protect the Catholic community from Loyalists burning them out of their homes. PIRA saw this as a usurping of their position or supposed position as protectors of the Catholic community and began their campaign of terror. Ironically they probably killed more of their own community than the Brits ever did. Punishment beatings, kneecappings, the "Disappeared"  (Something McGuiness failed to address by telling the families what happened to their loved ones. ) 

McGuiness will never be anything more than a murdering terrorist who only turned to the peace table when he knew his organisation was infiltrated as far as the IRA Council and he / they knew they were not going to win the shooting war.

 

Cool story pal but why did the British Army kill civilians if their war was against the IRA?  

 

[Guest BlueGaz]

On 22/03/2017 at 7:54 AM, Flure said:

Good morning, everyone.

Former First minister Alex Salmond's thoughts:-

"IT was 2007 and the fledgling power-sharing administration in Northern Ireland was seeking support and legitimacy.

In successive choreographed phone calls the Rev Ian Paisley and Martin McGuinness, First Minister and Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland respectively, invited the newly-elected First Minister of Scotland to address the Stormont Assembly.

I went and I delivered an address in the Senate chamber finely tuned to upset as few apple carts as possible. But what I saw was amazing. The press reports of a rapport between the First Minister and his Deputy were underestimated.

In private, the relationship was already deeply personal, even avuncular, between Paisley and the younger man.

In the evening, in the great halls of Stormont, there was a carefully balanced melody of Irish and Scots-Irish traditional music boasting both pipers and flautists!

And there amid the flute band there was a Lambeg Drum – a very symbol of the Protestant supremacy in Northern Ireland.

All day, I had been looking for a photo to encapsulate progress in an atmosphere where handshakes were still problematic and pictures – like phrases – make history in Ireland.
“You wouldn’t usually be so close to one of these drums?” I turned to Martin McGuinness and asked.

“100 yards, protesting” was the response he gave me.

“Ah,” I said. “It would be something if you and Ian were to beat it together would it not?”
Five minutes later, after a hastily summoned confab, the deed was done. Me behind the drum and Paisley and McGuinness with a drumstick each.

It was in the days before pictures went viral. Nowadays, it would have been a certainty.
I thought of that picture yesterday when news came through of Martin McGuinness’s passing and the reaction to it.

In the responses to his death, some were caught in the hurt of the past but some were overcoming it.

It is impossible to criticise those who lost so much, but some of those who lost the most were among those paying the most generous tributes.

Ian Paisley jnr MP’s thought of yesterday that “we are not judged by where we begin but by where we end up” has a more than a Presbyterian ring to it. However, it is a truth which I firmly and intimately recognise.

The reality there would have been violence in Northern Ireland with or without a McGuinness but peace only with him.

He was warm, engaging and witty and, as a hard man, uniquely placed to find the path to peace.

Deeply religious, Martin (like Big Ian) used to end phone conversations with the words “God bless” – and he meant it.

He would be aware of the ultimate fates of the peacemaker compared to those who wreak division in their own house. In Ian Paisley, he found a coalition and a soulmate. Both are now gone and so from politics are a generation of Westminster leaders who understood at first hand the heavy penalty that is visited on all of us from neglect of Northern Ireland.

The current Prime Minister seems totally oblivious to her responsibilities and her relationship with all of the devolved administrations is, at best, distant.

The post-election talks are stalemated and the omens are not good. The Brexit event is casting its long shadow, like a nuclear winter, over politics.

We have to hope the parties of the north realise that real progress can only come from within.

In my opinion they should follow the example of Paisley and McGuinness and beat the Lambeg Drum – beat it loud but together."

Genuine question, what would your stance be on Jimmy Saville and all his charity work? Should we forgive him for all the good work he did?

[Flure]

Just now, BlueGaz said:

Genuine question, what would your stance be on Jimmy Saville and all his charity work? Should we forgive him for all the good work he did?

Me?

 

Absolutely not.

[Guest BlueGaz]

2 minutes ago, Flure said:

Me?

 

Absolutely not.

Would Alex, in your opinion?

[phart]

Who would have thought that the human life could be so full of contradictions. We're such a consistent species normally

 

He was a killer and a man of peace.A life has many seasons. Always room for improvement.

 

 

[Flure]

2 minutes ago, BlueGaz said:

Would Alex, in your opinion?

I have no idea.

[Guest BlueGaz]

3 minutes ago, phart said:

He was a killer and a man of peace.A life has many seasons. Always room for improvement.

 

 

It does, but rarely so extreme.

[phart]

26 minutes ago, BlueGaz said:

It does, but rarely so extreme.

That's why we're all talking about it, cause it was a crazy juxtaposition of "jobs"

[aaid]

1 hour ago, BlueGaz said:

Genuine question, what would your stance be on Jimmy Saville and all his charity work? Should we forgive him for all the good work he did?

The thing about Saville though is that the charity work was both an enabler for his crimes - by giving him access to some of his victims - and also a way of making sure that he was untouchable.  For Saville, it wasn't that he did good things and bad things, he did good things as a means to doing bad things.

 

[MacTaz]

On 22/03/2017 at 10:53 PM, Newryrep said:

I have been on this board for a few years now so I know you are ex ? current ? BA and I am sure you could well have lost colleages during the conflict but I have a couple of observations

I thought it was  particulary irish trait to have no concept whatsoever of the opposing point of view but is appears to be universal even in the BA who for all their faults learn their lessons from history ( excluding Ireland)

and have you  ever genuinely looked at certain  actions of the BA/British Arms industry fully backed by the BA ?

 i would rather have been stopped by an English BA soldier everytime as opposed to the Uul Do Rightly local  variety as for one i knew they would rather be a million miles  from here rather than  stuck in this rain forsaken  place (scots could be hit or miss depending)

I have a better idea of the views and goals of PIRA /INLA/OIRA/IRSP than most on this board. Given that I have actually met them face to face.  And of their colleagues on the other side UDA ./ UFF /UVF/ Red Hand Commando et al /  UDR I wouldn't have trusted as far as I could throw them.  

English troops rarely hand a proper grasp of the nuances of the conflict. Scots soldiers were usually well versed in them. If any gave you a hard time they were more than likely the same morons who stomp about banging big drums and flutes every July. Every bit as bitter and twisted as their orange bretheren across the pond. 

I am also conversant with the section of society that does it's damndest to discredit the British Army at every opportunity. 

One final point on McGuiness , the very fact that Blair and shagger Clinton are heaping praise on him should tell anyone everything they need to know about him. 

 

[MacTaz]

3 hours ago, Squirrelhumper said:

Cool story pal but why did the British Army kill civilians if their war was against the IRA?  

 

Which Civilians ? They were all civilians according to them.They never wore a uniform .   And please spare me the Bloody Sunday bollox it's been done to death. Every time a volunteer was killed they would claim he was unarmed . I'll just leave this here.........

 

 

[ParisInAKilt]

13 minutes ago, MacTaz said:

Which Civilians ? They were all civilians according to them.They never wore a uniform .   And please spare me the Bloody Sunday bollox it's been done to death. Every time a volunteer was killed they would claim he was unarmed . I'll just leave this here.........

 

 

An unsourced graph? 

[aaid]

31 minutes ago, ParisInAKilt said:

An unsourced graph? 

Supporting data is here 

http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/past/troubles/troubles_stats.html

Here's another link to similar data  

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/sutton/tables/Organisation_Responsible.html

approximately half of all deaths attributed to the troubles are the responsibility of the IRA

[Newryrep]

1 hour ago, MacTaz said:

I have a better idea of the views and goals of PIRA /INLA/OIRA/IRSP than most on this board. Given that I have actually met them face to face.  And of their colleagues on the other side UDA ./ UFF /UVF/ Red Hand Commando et al /  UDR I wouldn't have trusted as far as I could throw them.  

English troops rarely hand a proper grasp of the nuances of the conflict. Scots soldiers were usually well versed in them. If any gave you a hard time they were more than likely the same morons who stomp about banging big drums and flutes every July. Every bit as bitter and twisted as their orange bretheren across the pond. 

I am also conversant with the section of society that does it's damndest to discredit the British Army at every opportunity. 

One final point on McGuiness , the very fact that Blair and shagger Clinton are heaping praise on him should tell anyone everything they need to know about him. 

 

identical post to the first

[hunchy]

Even if he didn't want to or was forced into putting down his arm and working for peace the sheer respect McGuiness had amongst the republican community would mean that most would follow him and back the peace process

[MacTaz]

8 minutes ago, hunchy said:

Even if he didn't want to or was forced into putting down his arm and working for peace the sheer respect McGuiness had amongst the republican community would mean that most would follow him and back the peace process

I think you'll find it was more fear than respect. That's how they worked .  Punishment beatings, kneecappings, tar and feathering , people forced to leave their communities  . In the end The provos were little more than gangsters, running drugs , smuggling petrol , protection rackets, abductions . Not to mention passing on their terrorist expertise to random foreign terrorist groups.  What was it somebody was saying about freedom fighters and terrorists ? 

 

[Parklife]

It's always good to get Taz's one sided, bat shit mental view on a topic. 

 

[Guest BlueGaz]

3 hours ago, aaid said:

The thing about Saville though is that the charity work was both an enabler for his crimes - by giving him access to some of his victims - and also a way of making sure that he was untouchable.  For Saville, it wasn't that he did good things and bad things, he did good things as a means to doing bad things.

 

And Martin didn't do the same? He moved into peace to avoid doing time for the crime. 

[Toepoke]

2 hours ago, BlueGaz said:

And Martin didn't do the same? He moved into peace to avoid doing time for the crime. 

It's not a great analogy to Jimmy Savile though, who it seems continued to commit crimes right up to his death.