Panama papers

[antidote]

Corbyn in a forgetful mood with his tax returns?

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/news/73752/corbyn-admits-failing-include-pension-income-tax

[Pool Q]

On ‎4‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 11:17 PM, antidote said:

No wonder we have the highest tax burden of any of the modernised countries in the world.

This is the original statement you made. Larky responded with, amongst other things, the OECD figures which shows the UK to be in the middle, certainly nowhere near the most taxed. You have gone on to list a number of taxes we pay, along with links to a couple of fairly unconvincing sites. You are now saying the OECD's site only covers direct taxation (I'll be honest I haven't checked that) but that the level of indirect taxes in the UK is higher than other countries. Most of those you have listed are likely to be applicable in other countries though. We own property and run a car in Spain, tax on that may be a bit lower but overall, I wonder if it would be much lower (if at all). To be fair I've never sat down and done any sort of comparison.

[thplinth]

Almost one-third of income tax payers contribute less to the Exchequer than the top 3,000 earners - equivalent to 0.01 per cent of the total (i.e the top 3000 income tax payers in the UK pay more than the bottom 9 million income tax payers.) 

Official figures show that the 300,000 people earning more than £150,000 a year now pay almost 30 per cent of all income tax.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/tax/11233686/How-top-3000-earners-pay-more-tax-than-bottom-9-million.html

This is why it is very dangerous to target the rich as the solution to all your tax problems. 

You do have to not only look at the direct and indirect taxes people pay but also all the benefits they extract (financial and in-kind as well). The difference between them is the persons net benefit or cost from paying taxes. According to one analysis those earning 105K are paying in about 30k more than they get out in benefits. 

 

Edited April 15, 2016 by thplinth

[Lamia]

1 hour ago, antidote said:

And you have again have confused direct taxation and indirect taxation. The link Larky sent, although informative, does not show the indirect taxes, well not that I can find it, 

Things like stamp duty, road tax as well as a raft of other taxes are not counted as direct taxation.

I have been consistent here and saying indirect taxes 

See Pool Q's post. I was asking you to justify that quote which made no reference to direct or indirect taxation. 

[antidote]

3 hours ago, Pool Q said:

This is the original statement you made. Larky responded with, amongst other things, the OECD figures which shows the UK to be in the middle, certainly nowhere near the most taxed. You have gone on to list a number of taxes we pay, along with links to a couple of fairly unconvincing sites. You are now saying the OECD's site only covers direct taxation (I'll be honest I haven't checked that) but that the level of indirect taxes in the UK is higher than other countries. Most of those you have listed are likely to be applicable in other countries though. We own property and run a car in Spain, tax on that may be a bit lower but overall, I wonder if it would be much lower (if at all). To be fair I've never sat down and done any sort of comparison.

Yes and the next comment says indirect tax also. I'm sure you do know direct and indirect tax is still tax.

[antidote]

2 hours ago, Lamia said:

See Pool Q's post. I was asking you to justify that quote which made no reference to direct or indirect taxation. 

But you jumped in thinking direct tax and I did say several times that you were getting confused between the 2 

As Larky's link said countries including the uk, are moving away, not fully, from direct tax onto indirect tax.

Direct tax and indirect tax is tax.

Things like national insurance, stamp duty, excise duty etc. are just other names and forms of taxation. 

[Pool Q]

45 minutes ago, antidote said:

Yes and the next comment says indirect tax also. I'm sure you do know direct and indirect tax is still tax.

I do, yes. I've looked for any indication that this is a subject on which you have much knowledge on. It is becoming abundantly clear it isn't.

[thplinth]

The bottom 10 per cent of households paid an average of 47 per cent of their gross income in taxes - by far the highest percentage of any income group. These folk are earning about 4 grand a year!

But when you factor in the benefits they get from the tax system they  are extracting nearly 9 grand on top of this. 

The sweet spot seems to be about earning 8-9 grand per year then you get another 11-10 grand in benefits out the tax system beyond what you paid in.

If you earn more than 25-35k I would estimate you are then paying in more than you take out. Even if you 'only' earn 57k you will be paying in a shocking 12k more than you take out. (based on 2012-13 figures)

[Stu101]

5 hours ago, thplinth said:

Almost one-third of income tax payers contribute less to the Exchequer than the top 3,000 earners - equivalent to 0.01 per cent of the total (i.e the top 3000 income tax payers in the UK pay more than the bottom 9 million income tax payers.) 

Official figures show that the 300,000 people earning more than £150,000 a year now pay almost 30 per cent of all income tax.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/tax/11233686/How-top-3000-earners-pay-more-tax-than-bottom-9-million.html

This is why it is very dangerous to target the rich as the solution to all your tax problems. 

You do have to not only look at the direct and indirect taxes people pay but also all the benefits they extract (financial and in-kind as well). The difference between them is the persons net benefit or cost from paying taxes. According to one analysis those earning 105K are paying in about 30k more than they get out in benefits. 

 

This. And those 300,000 are the most mobile.

[Lamia]

3 hours ago, antidote said:

But you jumped in thinking direct tax 

 

I did not. I have all along being asking you to justify the above statement which you have not done and have now tried to claim you were talking only about indirect taxes which you made no reference to in the quote I was asking you to defend

Edited April 15, 2016 by Lamia

[thplinth]

10 minutes ago, Stu101 said:

This. And those 300,000 are the most mobile.

Do you know how many people it takes to make up the other two thirds?

So it was 300,000 = to make up one third and...

29,600,000 = to make up the remaining two thirds! 

Hating rich people is stupid. 

 

[thplinth]

 

21 minutes ago, Stu101 said:

This. And those 300,000 are the most mobile.

Treat the feckers fairly and you have a much better chance of getting fair taxes off them than by treating them like mug khunts. These 300,000 (although it is more an upper strata) can and will move overnight.  The SNP are exhibiting a naive and stupid old labour attitude to rich people, it is palpable.

Do you really want to get rid of capitalism for whatever horror show they will replace it with? Get a grip. 

[Orraloon]

It must be about Tony B Liar's turn soon.

[ParisInAKilt]

Getting rid of capitalism sounds like a great idea

[Mindimoo]

9 hours ago, Orraloon said:

It must be about Tony B Liar's turn soon.

The Times front page today!

[ThistleWhistle]

There is a limitation in the Telegraph Article in that it'll only include income hmrc is aware of surely?  Maybe idealistic but if the top 1% own/earn the same as the lowest 55% then their contributions should be similar.  I don't share the view we should be thankful to the 10% that their moral compass has graced us with a third of our tax return and they haven't jetted off to an even more loopholed climate.

 

[antidote]

17 hours ago, Pool Q said:

I do, yes. I've looked for any indication that this is a subject on which you have much knowledge on. It is becoming abundantly clear it isn't.

Jesus! It is pretty obvious that you can't tell what the difference between direct tax and indirect tax-the both of them are tax.

[antidote]

14 hours ago, Lamia said:

I did not. I have all along being asking you to justify the above statement which you have not done and have now tried to claim you were talking only about indirect taxes which you made no reference to in the quote I was asking you to defend

 

Just 1 of my previous posts:

" Have done so you've obviously not opened your eyes. Try googling and remember indirect taxation' too. "

 

Kinda shot yourself in the foot there did you not.

[antidote]

TA , there is some quirky things going on with your site. See my last comment, it seems to only happen when replying/quoting Lamia's post.

[antidote]

14 hours ago, Lamia said:

I did not. I have all along being asking you to justify the above statement which you have not done and have now tried to claim you were talking only about indirect taxes which you made no reference to in the quote I was asking you to defend

Here is one of my previous posts:

"Have done so you've obviously not opened your eyes. Try googling and remember 'indirect taxation' too."

 

Kinda shot yourself in the foot there did you not.

[Scunnered]

3 hours ago, ParisInAKilt said:

Getting rid of capitalism sounds like a great idea

It really, really does

[euan2020]

1 hour ago, ThistleWhistle said:

There is a limitation in the Telegraph Article in that it'll only include income hmrc is aware of surely?  Maybe idealistic but if the top 1% own/earn the same as the lowest 55% then their contributions should be similar.  I don't share the view we should be thankful to the 10% that their moral compass has graced us with a third of our tax return and they haven't jetted off to an even more loopholed climate.

 

unlikely - if they have a a matching income - each of the 55% will have their GBP 10K tax free allowance - whilst the tax free element will be negligible on the 1% incomes

Additionally - the top 1% will also be paying at higher tax rate 

saying that - lot easier for them to use tax efficient vehicles - 

[euan2020]

play around with this  good site

https://listentotaxman.com/150000?

5 guys on GBP 30K a year (UK average wage) pay GBP 19K a year combined tax

1 guy on GBP 150K pays GBP 53,600 tax

 

[Pool Q]

1 hour ago, antidote said:

Jesus! It is pretty obvious that you can't tell what the difference between direct tax and indirect tax-the both of them are tax.

You're a curious creature. In reality, after it being shown your initial claim was nonsense, you tried to muddy the waters by saying indirect tax rates in the UK were higher. When the that was shown not to be the case either - with real tax rates in the UK being roughly in the middle for developed countries - you then developed your 'analysis' by listing various taxes as and when you could think of them, and backing up your claims with links to, amongst others, the Daily Mail. Most indirect taxes in the UK will have equivalents in other countries (VAT rates are set at an EU level for example, and I don't think I've ever been anywhere there wasn't a sales tax). 

To take two specific examples. I checked on the costs in Spain we paid in relation to a couple of taxes you listed earlier in the thread. The Spanish equivalent of Stamp Duty is a Transfer Tax, and is charged on the value of the property at a rate of 7%, higher (usually much higher) than Stamp Duty for any UK property, certainly for those of less than £925k. There is also a 3% Income Tax payable on the purchase by non-residents, but that can reasonably be forgotten about for comparative purposes. Either way, the cost is higher in Spain. Conversely, it should be said, road tax (IVMT) is probably about half to three-quarters what it is in the UK, depending on the model of the car.

You made a claim which was incorrect. Unsurprisingly, you have since been unable to show any credible evidence to substantiate your claim because it is wrong. Rather than quit when you weren't ahead you have kept on going, and are now relying on stuff like pretending that those disputing your claim 'don't understand' the difference between direct and indirect tax. 

[TDYER63]

13 minutes ago, euan2020 said:

play around with this  good site

https://listentotaxman.com/150000?

5 guys on GBP 30K a year (UK average wage) pay GBP 19K a year combined tax

1 guy on GBP 150K pays GBP 53,600 tax

 

I think i would still prefer to be the guy left with £ 96,400 to play with than one of the  5 guys with  £ 26,200.