Minimum Price For Alcohol

[Flure]

7 minutes ago, thistle do nicely said:

So when the alkies that put their booze before their weans have to pay more, there will be even less money in the purse for food.  Well played scottish government that's protecting the vulnerable all right.

Guess what? they're addicts!

Sounds all proactive and forward thinking though, nice headlines and that.

I don't know what research you conducted that has led you to your conclusions, but there's quite a lot of evidence out there of the widespread health and social benefits of such a policy. For example.......

http://theconversation.com/minimum-alcohol-pricing-canadas-accidental-public-health-strategy-25185

[Alan]

Culture needs to change.  Look how cheap alcohol is in France, Spain, Greece etc.  The people who are stumbling around there drunk are Brits and Irish.  

[wheres the pies]

9 hours ago, Alan said:

Culture needs to change.  Look how cheap alcohol is in France, Spain, Greece etc.  The people who are stumbling around there drunk are Brits and Irish.  

you have made a valid point there Allan  however it’s not just a Brit lrish problem I go to Alicante a lot if you where to see the local Spanish folks there it’s just as big a problem there as well can be total carnage in the old town at weekends 

[TDYER63]

IMO , anyone who feels a minimum price for alcohol is not a start in addressing our problem with alcohol falls into one of these categories:

1. Has a personal stake in the alcohol industry.

2. Has a personal problem with alcohol.

3. Has a political conflict.

4. Has no real interest in addressing the problem.  

[TDYER63]

13 hours ago, Alan said:

Culture needs to change.  Look how cheap alcohol is in France, Spain, Greece etc.  The people who are stumbling around there drunk are Brits and Irish.  

You are absolutely right Alan, culture does need to change. I believe this is most definitely the underlying problem.  Climate doesnt help either though as Where the Pies has confirmed , balmy climates does not guarantee a comfortable relationship with alcohol .,

 Unfortuanately  we are not going to become Switzerland or Santorinii  overnight , we need to start somewhere, and I cant see why having a minimum price on alcohol is an issue. 

[Orraloon]

9 hours ago, TDYER63 said:

IMO , anyone who feels a minimum price for alcohol is not a start in addressing our problem with alcohol falls into one of these categories:

1. Has a personal stake in the alcohol industry.

2. Has a personal problem with alcohol.

3. Has a political conflict.

4. Has no real interest in addressing the problem.  

I don't agree with minimum pricing and I don't fall into any of those categories.

I don't often agree with Alan, but I'm with him on this one.

[DoonTheSlope]

18 hours ago, TDYER63 said:

IMO , anyone who feels a minimum price for alcohol is not a start in addressing our problem with alcohol falls into one of these categories:

1. Has a personal stake in the alcohol industry.

2. Has a personal problem with alcohol.

3. Has a political conflict.

4. Has no real interest in addressing the problem.  

I fall into all of those categories tbh

[TDYER63]

14 hours ago, Orraloon said:

I don't agree with minimum pricing and I don't fall into any of those categories.

I don't often agree with Alan, but I'm with him on this one.

Thats fine Orraloon, as I said, its my opinion, and I still believe the vast majority of people will relate to the above. 

I also recall ageeing with Alan , and that culture needs to change. Bearing in mind we have no magic wand, why do you think mimimum pricing will not help in any way and what in fact should be done to address the problem ? 

Would be interested to hear Alan's view also.  

[TDYER63]

4 hours ago, DoonTheSlope said:

I fall into all of those categories tbh

😂 at least you are honest. 

[teecee-]

On 27/10/2017 at 10:34 PM, Alan said:

Culture needs to change.  Look how cheap alcohol is in France, Spain, Greece etc.  The people who are stumbling around there drunk are Brits and Irish.  

In Spain bars open at 8am and locals of all ages have no hesitation in using them. They don't call it a cultural problem, it's a way of life. We have weekend drinkers, as unlike the Spanish,  most don't touch a drop midweek.

[Ormond]

2 hours ago, teecee- said:

In Spain bars open at 8am and locals of all ages have no hesitation in using them. They don't call it a cultural problem, it's a way of life. We have weekend drinkers, as unlike the Spanish,  most don't touch a drop midweek.

Every pub here is open by 8 with some even 6am opening times. What I notice is that people here tend to know when to go quit and go home when they feel the swally buzz. Whereas, in Scotland that’s cvnts just starting to get warmed up.

[Scotland Ever More]

20 minutes ago, Ormond said:

Every pub here is open by 8 with some even 6am opening times. What I notice is that people here tend to know when to go quit and go home when they feel the swally buzz. Whereas, in Scotland that’s cvnts just starting to get warmed up.

A few cans of 7up would straighten them out.

[Ormond]

Just now, Scotland Ever More said:

A few cans of 7up would straighten them out.

 Jessie ye.

[ParisInAKilt]

In NZ I could get beer on a Sunday morning after night shift. 

Glorious. 

[thistle do nicely]

On 10/27/2017 at 9:35 PM, Flure said:

 

On 10/27/2017 at 9:35 PM, Flure said:

I don't know what research you conducted that has led you to your conclusions, but there's quite a lot of evidence out there of the widespread health and social benefits of such a policy. For example.......

http://theconversation.com/minimum-alcohol-pricing-canadas-accidental-public-health-strategy-25185

 

I've actually worked with medical groups that do this research and similar for sugar. 

They always claim poor people are more likely to eat/drink crap.

However alkies often call themselves alkies for ever that happen to be on the wagon. i.e. a drink away from addiction.  This isn't like a sugar tax where eventually sugary food will be as expensive as healthy food so a change is possible.  If you live with an alcoholic that doesn't care about anyone else they will still spend to get where they want to be whatever the cost.

The research you mention is interesting but could also be explained by pissed up students not buying as much reducing the acute alcohol problems and a reduction in the middle class bottle of wine a night types giving themselves liver disease.  The info doesn't say anything about the demographics affected.  

 

 

[thistle do nicely]

On 10/28/2017 at 11:12 AM, TDYER63 said:

IMO , anyone who feels a minimum price for alcohol is not a start in addressing our problem with alcohol falls into one of these categories:

1. Has a personal stake in the alcohol industry.

2. Has a personal problem with alcohol.

3. Has a political conflict.

4. Has no real interest in addressing the problem.  

Total generalisation

How about we state that anyone with an interest in minimum alcohol prices

1. Has a personal stake in the higher end (maybe whisky?) alcohol industry

2. Has a political conflict

3. Feels that if you are rich you can do what you like, while the poor aren't allowed to partake in drink or eat sugar

[TDYER63]

7 hours ago, thistle do nicely said:

Total generalisation

How about we state that anyone with an interest in minimum alcohol prices

1. Has a personal stake in the higher end (maybe whisky?) alcohol industry

2. Has a political conflict

3. Feels that if you are rich you can do what you like, while the poor aren't allowed to partake in drink or eat sugar

I am pretty sure its the whisky association that were challenging the government so not sure how you argument stacks up there. 

I dont really think anyone is saying that poor people are not entitled to partake in alcohol. Moderate drinkers are unlikely to be affected hugely by this. It is my understanding that this initiative is to try and reduce  the cheap crap with high alcohol content that supermarkets are selling and the bulk buying of alcohol on 'offer'.  

Many people will buy on bulk and work their way through it responsibily, but many will just rattle their way through it till its finished. I have witnessed with my own children and their friends buying these caffeine fuelled ciders and whilst many will outgrow them there will be others who do not. 

I dont think a minimum price on its own will get anywhere near addressing the alcohol problem, much more needs to be done,  but I think it is a start. It probalby wont help those already with chronic problems  because, as you pointed out , addicts will go to any length to get their 'fix' but to me this is about preventing more addiction going forward. 

I am happy to be corrected on any of this, I am in no way an expert, and I am prepared to be accused of generalisation. But not by someone who sweepingly classes people with alcohol addiction as  ' jakies and alkies' who will see their children go without food . 

[thistle do nicely]

Aye alright I take it back, alcoholics put everyone else first, and don't piss their families savings up the wall.

Back to your ivory tower and shout generalisations at anyone that doesn't agree with you.

Minimum pricing per unit will hit supermarket cheap drink, so the only people to benefit will be those that already sell alcohol at higher than the minimum unit cost i.e. pubs and more expensive end drink distilleries and brewers.

Its a stealth tax on the people that can drink responsibly while putting pressure on the people with alcoholics in their families.  If the government gave a rats arse they'ed start proper education.

I wouldn't be so annoyed if they were honest and said they were just raising tax or the country as a whole might benefit and put in some health economics to prove their point, but its the claim they are trying to help the vulnerable with no backup.

Scotland and Ireland are pushing the demon drink angle while bragging about whisky exports at the end of each year. Total hypocrites.

[TDYER63]

23 hours ago, thistle do nicely said:

Aye alright I take it back, alcoholics put everyone else first, and don't piss their families savings up the wall.

Back to your ivory tower and shout generalisations at anyone that doesn't agree with you.

Minimum pricing per unit will hit supermarket cheap drink, so the only people to benefit will be those that already sell alcohol at higher than the minimum unit cost i.e. pubs and more expensive end drink distilleries and brewers.

Its a stealth tax on the people that can drink responsibly while putting pressure on the people with alcoholics in their families.  If the government gave a rats arse they'ed start proper education.

I wouldn't be so annoyed if they were honest and said they were just raising tax or the country as a whole might benefit and put in some health economics to prove their point, but its the claim they are trying to help the vulnerable with no backup.

Scotland and Ireland are pushing the demon drink angle while bragging about whisky exports at the end of each year. Total hypocrites.

Not really sure what ivory tower you are referring to, unless a high flat in Paisley, where I was raised,  is what constitutes as an ivory tower these days. 

So you are saying the government is taking money from responsible drinkers, to pass onto pubs and high end distillers and organisations Iike the scotch whisky association, who themselves have objected to the mimimum pricing ? And the  government  are doing this based on no proper research . And they are not providing any proper education on alcohol.

Alcohol issues cost this country a fortune ,  the country WILL benefit if  this works. I can accept  you have  doubts about whether or not it will work but I cannot believe you think they are introducing it as they dont give a rats arse. 

And what about the Welsh government, who have just introduced mimimum pricing and the reason this thread restarted. I didnt notice them being mentioned along with Scotland and Ireland.

I may have been quick to generalise on the reasons people would not at least give minimum pricing a try, but I am really struggling to see why people would not want to give it a go. You have to try things to see if they work. There are a few bad  ideas I could accuse the government of implementing but to me this is not one of them.

Unfortunately  I dont think we are going to agree on this,  though I respect your view. 

[Flure]

4 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

Not really sure what ivory tower you are referring to, unless a high flat in Paisley, where I was raised,  is what constitutes as an ivory tower these days. 

So you are saying the government is taking money from responsible drinkers, to pass onto pubs and high end distillers and organisations Iike the scotch whisky association, who themselves have objected to the mimimum pricing ? And the  government  are doing this based on no proper research . And they are not providing any proper education on alcohol.

Alcohol issues cost this country a fortune ,  the country WILL benefit if  this works. I can accept  you have  doubts about whether or not it will work but I cannot believe you think they are introducing it as they dont give a rats arse. 

And what about the Welsh government, who have just introduced mimimum pricing and the reason this thread restarted. I didnt notice them being mentioned along with Scotland and Ireland.

I may have been quick to generalise on the reasons people would not at least give minimum pricing a try, but I am really struggling to see why people would not want to give it a go. You have to try things to see if they work. There are a few bad  ideas I could accuse the government of implementing but to me this is not one of them.

Unfortunately  I dont think we are going to agree on this,  though I respect your view. 

No you don't. I know you.

[TDYER63]

16 minutes ago, Flure said:

No you don't. I know you.

👀,  I have no idea what you are referring to.....

[hampden_loon2878]

How was the drinkink culture pre-"carry out" where people relied on going to the pub to get drunk? My dad said the pubs used to close at 10pm but that everyone came out earlier. Now it seems everyone gets steaming before they go out, end up down the road the back of eleven.Maybe just my dad reminiscing on his youth but he says it was far better and busier than it is nowadays, no question that the carry outs have been detrimental to pubs, but have they made our drinking culture worse also?

[andymac]

44 minutes ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

no question that the carry outs have been detrimental to pubs, but have they made our drinking culture worse also?

no question that the pubs have been detrimental to pubs.

 

[Ally Bongo]

It is not cultural per se with regards alcohol , more to do with our attitude towards it.

Attitudes towards alcohol have changed throughout the UK over the last 150 years and it's not always been Scotland that has been at the forefront of the problem.

For a long time alcohol abuse was linked to poverty - Be it London in the second half of the 19th century or Scotland in the 60s and 70s

We have certainly celebrated and lived up to the stereotype of the drunk Scotsman from that period onwards but every major city in England & Wales for example have now joined in.

Im not sure minimum pricing will make any sort of dent in the issues that we face but i guess the Govt needs to try something.

When Sweden was confronted with the same problems they completely banned the sale of real alcohol from supermarkets and shops - you can still buy what looks like the real thing but it is all low strength.

You can only get alcohol out on the town in Sweden in restaurants and pubs where it's really expensive.

To buy real alcohol thats not epensive for home consumption you need to visit a Government run off sales and as a Swedish citizen you are limited to how much you can purchase in a week/month

Thats the only way to go IMO but you can imagine the furore if the SNP legislated for that

Maybe when minimum pricing is seen to be not working that will be the cue for a Swedish style system

 

 

 

Edited November 1, 2017 by Ally Bongo

[Ormond]

On 10/31/2017 at 7:57 PM, Ally Bongo said:

When Sweden was confronted with the same problems they completely banned the sale of real alcohol from supermarkets and shops - you can still buy what looks like the real thing but it is all low strength.

You can only get alcohol out on the town in Sweden in restaurants and pubs where it's really expensive.

To buy real alcohol thats not epensive for home consumption you need to visit a Government run off sales and as a Swedish citizen you are limited to how much you can purchase in a week/month

Thats the only way to go IMO but you can imagine the furore if the SNP legislated for that

Maybe when minimum pricing is seen to be not working that will be the cue for a Swedish style system

 

 

 

So that explains why those wee tarts have suddenly taken an interest in following Scotland.