John_B81 Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 Over the last 18 years when we've tried and failed to qualify for a major tournament, the most used and infuriating excuses are "we've had bad luck" and "Ach we're just a wee nation". It's about time we got a reality check and accept we simply haven't been good enough! Relying on luck is definitely a weak argument and Strachan again talked about deflected goals. Yes, some games have seen luck desert us but, overall, you make your own luck and we've not done enough. Poland and Ireland both beat Germany, we lost to Georgia - that's the reason why we have missed out again. This "wee nation" pish can also do one. Iceland have just dispelled that myth completely, as have Northern Ireland. So many nations have developed whilst we've stood still being stuck in our ways. Some parts of the country to be fair are changing their youth structure but that can take years before we see any real progress and other parts still insist on the "tried and tested" methods that only hold back our game. It doesn't matter if you are a country of 5 million, 50 million or 300k, if you have the players and coaching staff you have a chance of qualifying. Another thing we need to lose is this settling for a draw carry on. Scotland fans celebrating a draw in Dublin was embarrassing and the team playing for a point was even worse. To qualify, you need to target victories against your closest rivals first. We can argue all we want that we didn't lose to Poland and Ireland, but we didn't beat Poland either and we lost a game away to a pot five team with the mentality of "we don't need to win" whilst our rivals went there and cleaned up. We need a winning mentality, not "a draw will do" one. Interestingly, the last time Scotland claimed maximum points against the bottom two seeded teams was Euro 96. Tells its own story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney Rubble Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 You've summed up our mentality issues perfectly in that post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Craig Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 That Scottish psyche is engrained into us. Look back through the years and our history is littered with jaw dropping defeats against minnows and this campsign is no different. The loss in Tblisi was a killer. It killed our momentum, filled us with self-doubt and derailed the campaign. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Of Paisley Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 Great post. Particularly the bit about us being stuck in the dark ages when bring through youth. When you have dinosaurs like Sbragia talking about the likes of Jack Harper being a luxury players and preferring runners to creative players then I truly despair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbcmfc Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 We've actually had our fair share of luck too! As you said, you make your own luck. In the 1st 44 minutes last night we were rarely close enough to their goal to get a luck goal. We scored 2 great goals, but on the balance of play, could've considered ourselves lucky had we won. Suppose Germany dropping points against our 2 main rivals, but the way the fixtures fell meaning they needed the results by the time they played us was unlucky. Ireland do appear to have carried some luck, but you could put it down to a never defeated attitude? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintlyscot Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 Anya's reaction to his equaliser in Dortmund summed up our mentality.....you would have thought he had scored in the world cup final! Embarrassing! This plucky effort but ultimately loser attitude perfaded the whole campaign. Let's face it Germany and Poland played below expectations....We could and probably should have been in the top to places. We have not beaten anyone of note in a game of any significance since Ukraine. Strachan has been a disappointment this campaign and I would like to know his thoughts on the future before we give him the next campaign. I have a feeling he will walk anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques Hunt Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 Over the last 18 years when we've tried and failed to qualify for a major tournament, the most used and infuriating excuses are "we've had bad luck" and "Ach we're just a wee nation". It's about time we got a reality check and accept we simply haven't been good enough! Relying on luck is definitely a weak argument and Strachan again talked about deflected goals. Yes, some games have seen luck desert us but, overall, you make your own luck and we've not done enough. Poland and Ireland both beat Germany, we lost to Georgia - that's the reason why we have missed out again. This "wee nation" pish can also do one. Iceland have just dispelled that myth completely, as have Northern Ireland. So many nations have developed whilst we've stood still being stuck in our ways. Some parts of the country to be fair are changing their youth structure but that can take years before we see any real progress and other parts still insist on the "tried and tested" methods that only hold back our game. It doesn't matter if you are a country of 5 million, 50 million or 300k, if you have the players and coaching staff you have a chance of qualifying. Another thing we need to lose is this settling for a draw carry on. Scotland fans celebrating a draw in Dublin was embarrassing and the team playing for a point was even worse. To qualify, you need to target victories against your closest rivals first. We can argue all we want that we didn't lose to Poland and Ireland, but we didn't beat Poland either and we lost a game away to a pot five team with the mentality of "we don't need to win" whilst our rivals went there and cleaned up. We need a winning mentality, not "a draw will do" one. Interestingly, the last time Scotland claimed maximum points against the bottom two seeded teams was Euro 96. Tells its own story. Spot on John, especially re settling for a draw. I will need to look at stats but I think that we also have an uncanny ability to trot out for a massive game and lose a very early goal thereby setting ourselves up for a 'by f**k we were unlucky there' scenario. It happens too often. Seek o it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
er yir macaroon Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 I refer you to the Iceland thread. It's like the scene from One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques Hunt Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 I refer you to the Iceland thread. It's like the scene from One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest. Ha ha- Thanks - that brought a wee smile............................................!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Of Paisley Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 This 'glorious failure' and 'wee nation' nonsense is almost ingrained in our psyche now. I think part of it comes from the 'too wee, too small to govern ourselves, too stupid' crap that comes out from Westminster politicians and a compliant media. It's trotted out so much that we have almost become accustomed to it and this inferiority complex attitude has crept into our national game. We simply don't have a 'never say die' attitude that the Irish have instilled in themselves. Until we shake off this malaise and start believing in ourselves then we'll never qualify for tournaments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion Rampant Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 We've actually had our fair share of luck too! As you said, you make your own luck. In the 1st 44 minutes last night we were rarely close enough to their goal to get a luck goal. We scored 2 great goals, but on the balance of play, could've considered ourselves lucky had we won. Suppose Germany dropping points against our 2 main rivals, but the way the fixtures fell meaning they needed the results by the time they played us was unlucky. Ireland do appear to have carried some luck, but you could put it down to a never defeated attitude? We won a game and drew a game from deflected shots in this campaign. We cannot blame where we finished on bad luck, we just were not good enough. If you end up having to rely on lucky breaks to qualify, you're probably not good enough in the first place. Anya's reaction to his equaliser in Dortmund summed up our mentality.....you would have thought he had scored in the world cup final! Embarrassing! Disagree with this. It was a massive goal at the time, they had just came back from winning the World Cup and he scored really well taken goal to level the game with them in their own back yard. It was something worth getting carried away with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
er yir macaroon Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 This 'glorious failure' and 'wee nation' nonsense is almost ingrained in our psyche now. I think part of it comes from the 'too wee, too small to govern ourselves, too stupid' crap that comes out from Westminster politicians and a compliant media. It's trotted out so much that we have almost become accustomed to it and this inferiority complex attitude has crept into our national game. We simply don't have a 'never say die' attitude that the Irish have instilled in themselves. Until we shake off this malaise and start believing in ourselves then we'll never qualify for tournaments. It's part of the problem but our players are not as good as they should be. Like the original poster says, look at Iceland. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Craig Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 (edited) It is a definite case of the quality not being there. People on here can bitch about Wales if they want but when they try labelling Wales as a one man team their argument falls to pieces. Ramsey plays for Arsenal, they have a host of players playing regularly for Swansea and one or two other EPL-based players. That puts them ahead of us for talent to call in in my book. Also look at threads on here (some contain posts from me) slating the likes of Fletcher, Rhodes, Griffiths, Forrest, Hutton, Whittaker, Broon etc etc etc. All regulars for us and about the best available for us to call on. That says it all that the quality isn't there. Even the standards in club European football (a good benchmark) has seen standards slip. Up to about a decade or less ago Scotland used to frequently have two teams in the Champions League group stages now it is surprising if we get one. Changing the manager changes nothing - still the lack of quality but at least (unlike his predecessors) the manager and his players are pulling in the same direction. Edited October 9, 2015 by Caledonian Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbcmfc Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 We won a game and drew a game from deflected shots in this campaign. We cannot blame where we finished on bad luck, we just were not good enough. If you end up having to rely on lucky breaks to qualify, you're probably not good enough in the first place. Completely agree. You make your own luck. (Not sure if you were agreeing with me or misunderstood my point?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris182 Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 You make your own luck in this game. We're just not good enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jock strap Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 We have had bits of luck such as Maloneys deflected goal in Dublin but been unfortunate with offside goals like Walters in the same game and Lewandowskis first last night. But we haven't progressed through a touch of bad luck. We haven't progressed due to losing silly goals and games. The defending at times has been awful and I still can't get how Marshall failed to stop the 1st last night. It was almost a back pass and at the near post. Georgia away and failure to attack Ireland in Dublin has cost us dearly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Craig Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 How I see the teams that pipped us:- Poland better in attack than us but not quite secure as us at the back. Not much better than us but trusted their attack more than us. Ireland weaker in attack than us but more secure at the back. More compact but less creative in attack but in the end more effective as a team than us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion Rampant Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 Completely agree. You make your own luck. (Not sure if you were agreeing with me or misunderstood my point?) I was agreeing with you It's not being able to keep enough clean sheets and not being able to hold on from winning/drawing positions that has cost us, nothing to do with luck. We threw away 5 points this campaign, 4 against Poland and 1 against Germany because we were unable to see a game out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jock strap Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 I was agreeing with you It's not being able to keep enough clean sheets and not being able to hold on from winning/drawing positions that has cost us, nothing to do with luck. We threw away 5 points this campaign, 4 against Poland and 1 against Germany because we were unable to see a game out. Add the 3 away to Georgia. Even a point there would have helped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wanday Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 Pretty much every wee country gets a good spell sometime - it may take generations but to be fair Iceland have worked at it with their golden generation. It depends on the players you have at the time and a good draw. Greece, though not that wee, won the Euro but look at them now. Wales have a couple of players now but were nowhere for years. Northern Ireland qualified for first time since the 80s - not particularly great players but a good draw. Uruguay has won the world cup - same size as Scotland. Maybe we had our spell in the 60s to 90s but didn't realise it. We would have qualified for more with the players we had but we were put into groups with Italy and West Germany in the 60s. When we eventually started qualifying there were only 16 teams in the finals. Not sure if we are going to have good times again. We are no longer punching above our weight, and I see no evidence of anything changing soon. Feel utterly dejected today. Off to Portugal tomorrow but really not caring. Not sure I can invest the same level of passion into all this again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 The tragedy is that the only way we can achieve decisive change for the better in our National game is if we vote with our feet and cash And with two games against England coming up for the SFA to dangle in front of the lemmings there is no danger of that happening anytime soon It will be more uncomfortable for the SFA to justify £50 & upwards for a ticket after the latest failure but they will Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion Rampant Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 Add the 3 away to Georgia. Even a point there would have helped. I didn't count that game as we were not ahead at any point, but yeah that's another one. Had we held the lead twice against Poland we'd have been sitting pretty just now. Poland would be on 16 and we would be on 16 points. We'd have been looking at automatic qualification as long as Ireland didn't win in Poland on Sunday. That's the margins that we're dealing with here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbcmfc Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 The tragedy is that the only way we can achieve decisive change for the better in our National game is if we vote with our feet and cash And with two games against England coming up for the SFA to dangle in front of the lemmings there is no danger of that happening anytime soon It will be more uncomfortable for the SFA to justify £50 & upwards for a ticket after the latest failure but they will Following on from this and some other threads, I often get the impression for a decent sized section of our support that the football itself is a bit of a sideshow to their day out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stactuso85 Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 We are terribly unlucky sometimes but I suspect there is something in our mindset which attracts it. Hope that doesn't sound too new agey. We were in the mix but came up just short due to one bad match and defensive errors being punished in others. Add in the bad officiating and tough group not helping. We should start to be more ruthless and confident in ourselves though. Players don't play to their potential when they are hesitant and a little scared Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion Rampant Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 We are terribly unlucky sometimes but I suspect there is something in our mindset which attracts it. Hope that doesn't sound too new agey. We were in the mix but came up just short due to one bad match and defensive errors being punished in others. Add in the bad officiating and tough group not helping. We should start to be more ruthless and confident in ourselves though. Players don't play to their potential when they are hesitant and a little scared It shouldn't come down to luck. As I've said previously, if you're relying on luck to qualify you're probably not good enough in the first place. We've had our fair share of luck anyway in this campaign, good luck has been balanced out by bad luck. We came up short because we have a poor defence than can't regularly keep clean sheets, we don't have someone that will score a lot of goals for us, we cannot hold onto winning situations when we find ourselves in them and when the big games come around we are invariably left wanting. Poland and Ireland finished above us because when it came to the crunch, they were able to get a result. Ireland's only realistic hope of a playoff/automatic qualification was to beat Germany and they did. Poland needed to avoid defeat at Hampden and they did that, only just but they still managed it. We were ahead twice against Poland and failed to win either game. We drew level with Germany and failed to hold onto the point. Over the whole group we've just not been good enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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