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Just now, Scotty CTA said:

I thought that you said that Israel are the lost sheep.

(I'm not lost. Why can't I still be a sheep?)

Waiting for you to quote scripture.   Pretty clear, the sheep are Israel, not the Body of Christ in the dispensation of grace.

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Just now, Kimba said:

Waiting for you to quote scripture.   Pretty clear, the sheep are Israel, not the Body of Christ in the dispensation of grace.

I already have.

(That's what you've objected to.)

You have only quoted 'lost sheep' for Israel.

(So, the only kind of sheep are lost sheep?)

So... The Lord isn't my Shepherd?

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5 minutes ago, Kimba said:

Waiting for you to quote scripture.  

I did in Matthew.

(That's why we are having this discussion.)

6 minutes ago, Kimba said:

Pretty clear, the sheep are Israel, not the Body of Christ in the dispensation of grace.

No.

You only quoted that the 'lost sheep' were Israel.

5 minutes ago, Kimba said:

Yep.  That's not us.

Then, who are the 'goats'.

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14 hours ago, Eisegerwind said:

Ah OK. I must've missed the final judgement I've not had my result yet, how did you get yours. Was it an email or did it come through the post.

Do you fancy answering my question, rather than continuing your bible wankfest with your protoge gone rouge.

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We're not Israel and you are not a sheep.  Our Judgment is right after the rapture - the Judgment seat of Christ.  The scripture you quoted is the final judgment (Great white throne) right at the end.  The body of Christ is taken out before the 7 year tribulation.

Edited by Kimba
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5 minutes ago, Scotty CTA said:

Fortunately, you haven't been judged yet.

In my case, my eternity was sealed when I accepted The Gospel.

 

Cool, I'll just wait till then. You seem to have got some 'get out of jail' card already, nice. So judgement day will just be for the ones she's swithering about? Hope she's not going to get a bit miffed when you turn up at the door and tell her your on the list. I've found that bouncers, Peter in this case, can be a bit stroppy when you start hitting them with that stuff.

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4 hours ago, Kimba said:

We're not Israel and you are not a sheep.  Our Judgment is right after the rapture - the Judgment seat of Christ.  The scripture you quoted is the final judgment (Great white throne) right at the end.  The body of Christ is taken out before the 7 year tribulation.

You know we don't get 'judged', right?

We give an account of our lives.

It's more to do with rewarding the faithful.

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4 hours ago, Eisegerwind said:

Cool, I'll just wait till then..

I don't recommend that.

4 hours ago, Eisegerwind said:

You seem to have got some 'get out of jail' card already, nice. 

"There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." Romans 8:1

4 hours ago, Eisegerwind said:

So judgement day will just be for the ones she's swithering about? 

The faithful are rewarded at the Judgement Seat Of Christ.

Those bound for the Lake of Fire will be at The Great White Throne Judgement.

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4 hours ago, Kimba said:

We're not Israel and you are not a sheep.  Our Judgment is right after the rapture - the Judgment seat of Christ.  The scripture you quoted is the final judgment (Great white throne) right at the end.  The body of Christ is taken out before the 7 year tribulation.

You never answered who the 'goats' are (or who the sheep are for that matter).

Why does Jesus separate the 'sheep' from the 'goats'?

What's the point if they are all bound for The Lake of Fire?

OK... The 'lost sheep' are Israel.

Now, who are the 'sheep' (that aren't lost) and who are the 'goats'?

How about... The sheep are the saved; The Shepherd brings Israel into the body (now saved); and the goats are the unsaved?

A person is either saved or unsaved.

Heaven bound or hell bound.

'Israel' is 'to be saved'.

:sing: I once was lost but now am found...

Riddle me this...

What do you call a lost sheep when it becomes found?

Do you still call it a lost sheep?

No, of course not.

Is it still a sheep?

Of course.

So, what's different now?

The previously 'lost' sheep now recognise The Shepherd for Who He is.

Something that we have already done.

Israel are 'His' sheep (only currently lost).

We are His sheep (so... saved).

The sheep go to 'The Judgement Seat of Christ' and the goats go to 'The Great White Throne Judgement'.

That's why Jesus separates them.

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Well, it’s called the Judgment Seat of Christ.... 2 Cor 5:10.

i prefer right division as per 2 Timothy 2:15 to riddles.....and that’s what not rightly dividing will do - cause confusion and riddles.

we are supposed to study to show ourselves approved - rightly dividing between mystery and prophecy.

We are not sheep, that is Israel.

 

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Matthew 24 Is Not My Future

Jesus’ ministry in Matthew-John was to the “lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Mat 15:24). His ministry to the circumcision confirmed the covenant promises to the nation Israel (Rom 15:8). 

Nowhere in these books do we find the mystery information later revealed by the Lord Jesus to Paul. This includes Matthew 24 where Jesus tells his chosen judges of the twelve tribes about the “sign of his coming”. 

We know from the context that Jesus is still speaking to his covenant people according to prophecy. None of the events in Matthew 24 are written for our participation. Here are some clues that we do not fit in this audience.

Salvation by Enduring

In Matthew 24 salvation is received through endurance (Mat 24:13). Yet, salvation today in the dispensation of God’s grace does not depend on our endurance through tribulation. It rests solely upon the finished work of Christ and provides salvation now.

“And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.” – Rom 5:11

Gospel of the Kingdom

God’s message to covenant Israel in Matt-John was that the Messiah had arrived and the promised kingdom was coming (Mark 1:14-15). This is different from God’s message of grace concerning the free justification and reconciliation that he provides by the blood of Christ. 

In Matthew 24:14 they are preaching the prophetic gospel of the kingdom. This would not be the mystery gospel of the cross that Paul preaches. The twelve tribes did not know the mystery gospel which had not been revealed. 

Holy Place Activities

Matthew 24:15 speaks of prophesied events about the Jewish temple and their holy place (Matt 24:15). There is no “holy place”, temple, or chosen nation in this dispensation. There is neither Jew nor Gentile in Christ (Col 3:11). We are the temple of the Holy Spirit.

“Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?” – 1 Corinthians 3:16

Trouble in Judaea

Jesus tells those in Judaea to flee to the mountains because of the tribulation (Mat 24:16). Yet, most of the church today does not live in Judaea. We would not fit in this context. 

Anyway, what would they be fleeing from? The context talks about trouble and wrath coming to that place (Matt 24:21). 

Matthew 24 is about the Lord fulfilling his prophecy purpose on the earth. When he returns in Matt 24:30 it will be in judgment to establish his earthly kingdom in Judea (Rev 19:11). None of these things can happen while God is offering free salvation to the world in this dispensation on terms of peace. 

If we are looking for the sign’s of God’s judgment then we should be telling people to flee and fear as the Lord does in Matthew 24.

Instead, God has given us a new message. We are God’s ambassadors offering grace, peace, and reconciliation to the world through Calvary’s cross.

http://graceambassadors.com/prophecy/matthew-24-is-not-my-future

 

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List: 17 Reasons Israel’s Prophecies are not Being Fulfilled in this Dispensation

We live in a mystery dispensation where the operation of God on the Earth is significantly different than it was during the dispensation of his prophetic purpose to Israel. Below are reasons that Israel’s prophecies concerning the coming judgment and Earthly kingdom will not be fulfilled during this dispensation. 

 

As better Bible teachers have said, to resolve the confusion of the “signs of the times” we must understand first the “times of the signs”. It is not until the time of this mystery dispensation is complete that the time of prophetic signs and fulfillment will continue according to God’s word. 

  1. The mystery was kept secret
    If the mystery of Christ was kept secret during every prophetic utterance in since the world began, then prophecy cannot be what is happening during the mystery dispensation (Acts 3:21Romans 16:25). What God hath separated let no man put together.
  2. What is foretold is not kept secret
    The end time events of judgment, kingdom, and prophetic fulfillment were foretold. If those prophesied days actually speak of days during the mystery dispensation then these days were spoken about before. This is contrary to the scripture when it speaks what is hidden and revealed.
  3. God’s gospel is different
    The gospel of the grace of God is free justification with no accompanying works. The kingdom gospel pertains to the new covenant which has required works of law written on their heart.
  4. God’s operation is different
    Some prophecies are about unbelievers, yet others require God’s intervention. The way he intervenes in prophecy is according to the promises and covenants. Yet, today God is not operating with humanity according to a covenants but by his grace.
  5. God’s people are different
    The church in prophecy was is the obedient nation of Israel. Today, the people of God are made up of Israel and Gentiles. There is neither Jew nor Greek. These are mutually exclusive.
  6. God’s representation is different
    Revelation and prophetic books talk about the priests of the Lord being the promised people of God. A characteristic of this dispensation is that there are no priests of the Lord. The church today as members of his body was not prophesied.
  7. God’s purpose is different
    The prophetic purpose was to set up God’s dominion on the Earth. That is not God’s purpose in this dispensation which is to build a new creature to inhabit heavenly dominions.
  8. Israel is fallen in this dispensation 
    Romans 9-11 describe Israel’s spiritual fall. Prophetic fulfillment requires that Israel be given the position of spiritual and political prominence.
  9. Salvation is sent to the Gentiles
    Acts 28:28 tells plainly that salvation is sent to the Gentiles. Yet, according to prophecy the Jewish nation would be the evangelists of God’s salvation.
  10. We are delivered from wrath to come
    Paul says in 1 Thessalonians 1:10 that we are delivered from wrath to come. The prophesied wrath on the Earth was a result of the covenant relationship between God and his people.
  11. We are children of the day, not the night
    1 Thessalonians 5:1-9 says that those in the “night” time are looking for signs. We are not in that time, but are rather children of the “day” time in history. We are not appointed to the coming judgment.
  12. God is not imputing sins
    The coming judgment on the earth is justified by the imputation of trespasses on the world. However, at this time God is not imputing trespasses to anyone (2 Cor 5:19).
  13. It is the dispensation of God’s grace
    The only events remaining on God’s prophetic calendar refer to his declaration of war upon the world that declared war on him 2000 years ago. You can not offer terms of peace in the dispensation of grace while at the same time declaring war.
  14. Prophetic signs are global
    Some think the prophecies contain only specific prophecies such as the mark of the beast or the antichrist, when actually they include the whole earth. The worldwide nature of some of the prophecies indicates that the prophesies would directly affect any church that was on Earth.
  15. Prophecy is on a timetable
    This hidden dispensation has no prophetic timetable associated with it. Paul declares the beginning of his message as being “out of due time”. Prophetic fulfillment is foretold to the month and year.
  16. Prophecy is for Israel
    Prophecy was a privilege to the nation Israel who required signs (1 Cor 1:22). There is no Israel today. It will be Israel’s prophets that will be sent to witness to the world during that time.
  17. Israel today is not God’s Israel
    Most point to 1948 creation of the state of Israel as a fulfillment of prophecy. However, these people who were gathered together by geopolitical forces reject the Messiah. Though they could many choose not to be saved by God’s grace without the law. Indeed, that message remains an offense to them. They are not the remnant of Israel that began at Pentecost.
Editor’s note: 
This is an incomplete list of reasons why Israel’s prophecy is not being fulfilled today, but it emphasizes the doctrine of the difference between what was prophesied and what was kept secret (mystery). 

 

Prophetic fulfillment will happen as literally as the Bible declares it to be. Many tell stories of prophetic fulfillment and use exaggerated language to ascribe Bible proof texts. This is not proper Bible application and should be avoided.

http://graceambassadors.com/prophecy/reasons-israels-prophecies-are-not-being-fulfilled-in-this-dispensation

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6 hours ago, Kimba said:

Well, it’s called the Judgment Seat of Christ.... 2 Cor 5:10

Yes, that has already been established.

6 hours ago, Kimba said:

i prefer right division as per 2 Timothy 2:15 to riddles.....and that’s what not rightly dividing will do - cause confusion and riddles.

Nope.

All that I am suggesting is to work it out slowly and logically to arrive at the only possible correct answer (regardless of what the right divisionists are filling your head with).

6 hours ago, Kimba said:

we are supposed to study...

OK, good.

So, we agree that Israel are the lost sheep.

When does the penny drop for them?

When they realise that they have been double-crossed by the antichrist and that Jesus was the Christ all along.

So when does this happen?

It happens during the tribulation.

Are people saved during the tribulation?

Through God's grace and mercy, yes.

So, Jesus divides those that were saved during the tribulation from those that weren't saved during the tribulation.

That's the sheep and goat division.

So, when?

This is after the rapture, and after 'The Judgement Seat of Christ', and after 'The Marriage Supper of the Lamb', at the end of the tribulation, at the 'Second Coming', just before the Millennial Reign, and before the final 'White Throne Judgement'.

The sheep are the saved, regardless of being Jew or gentile, and the goats are the unsaved, regardless of being Jew or gentile.

2 hours ago, DonnyTJS said:

The familiar, plaintive cry of all who've ever asked Kimba a tricky question ...

In my imperfection, I still have to try and show God's grace and patience.

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16 hours ago, Scotty CTA said:

Yes, that has already been established.

Nope.

All that I am suggesting is to work it out slowly and logically to arrive at the only possible correct answer (regardless of what the right divisionists are filling your head with).

OK, good.

So, we agree that Israel are the lost sheep.

When does the penny drop for them?

When they realise that they have been double-crossed by the antichrist and that Jesus was the Christ all along.

So when does this happen?

It happens during the tribulation.

Are people saved during the tribulation?

Through God's grace and mercy, yes.

So, Jesus divides those that were saved during the tribulation from those that weren't saved during the tribulation.

That's the sheep and goat division.

So, when?

This is after the rapture, and after 'The Judgement Seat of Christ', and after 'The Marriage Supper of the Lamb', at the end of the tribulation, at the 'Second Coming', just before the Millennial Reign, and before the final 'White Throne Judgement'.

The sheep are the saved, regardless of being Jew or gentile, and the goats are the unsaved, regardless of being Jew or gentile.

In my imperfection, I still have to try and show God's grace and patience.

Scotty, we are not in the tribulation - we are not appointed to wrath (1 Thess 5:9). In the tribulation God will be pouring out His WRATH.   This is the dispensation of GRACE.

The rapture happens before the 7 year tribulation.  You are completely missing out the mystery doctrine given to Paul.  You believe we are the Bride as well.  We are not the bride, we are the body.  The bride is ISRAEL.

Honestly, it's building up a whole load of wood hay and stubble.  

Please learn right division.

 

 

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20 hours ago, DonnyTJS said:

The familiar, plaintive cry of all who've ever asked Kimba a tricky question ...

What about all the tricky stuff I asked Scotty that went completely ignored? 

Of course, maybees you are of the same belief of thinking we're 'spiritual Israel'- replacement theology (which is false). After all, the royal family believe they are descendants of King David.  That's why HM has the stone of scone under her throne and what the song Jerusalem is about.  However, British Israelism is a false belief because Israel is FALLEN and her program is not in operation in this present dispensation of GRACE.  

Sadly, the royals don't believe who Jesus says he was - GOD MANIFEST IN THE FLESH, who died for our sins was buried and rose again the third day according to the scriptures.  They believe false stuff such as Jesus was one of the ascended masters - a guru figure - one who 'evolved' into a god (and other stupid false stuff like he visited Glastonbury and learned from the Druids).  Sadly that has been the lie from the Garden of Eden, that we can be the gods - that's what caused the fall in the first place.

We are in the dispensation of Grace where presently ANYONE CAN BE SAVED by intellectually understanding that you are a sinner and have fallen short of the glory of God, that you NEED a Saviour, who is the LORD JESUS CHRIST, who died for our sins, was buried and rose again the third day for our JUSTIFICATION.  FAITH ALONE SAVES SOULS.

 

 

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18 hours ago, Scotty CTA said:

 

In my imperfection, I still have to try and show God's grace and patience.

Haughty.  Has it not occurred to you why he's backing you up?   Israel had to have faith plus works (Peter, James, Hebrews) - you believe your works prove your salvation. That's Israel's program. All you have done is stopped doing some sins through the energies of your flesh. 

In this dispensation we are saved WITHOUT ANY WORKS to prove it.

THINGS THAT DIFFER ARE NOT THE SAME.

Peter, James Hebrews say faith plus works.  Only Paul says FAITH ALONE. because that is the mystery doctrine revealed only to him by the LORD Jesus Christ.

 

 

 

Edited by Kimba
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1 hour ago, Kimba said:

What about all the tricky stuff I asked Scotty that went completely ignored? 

I guess I missed it. Given that I disagree with the basic premise (the Bible is divinely inspired), his interpretations of the text make rather more sense than yours. Are you going to give him an answer about the goats?

 

1 hour ago, Kimba said:

Of course, maybees you are of the same belief of thinking we're 'spiritual Israel'- replacement theology (which is false). After all, the royal family believe they are descendants of King David.  That's why HM has the stone of scone under her throne and what the song Jerusalem is about.

It's hard to know where to begin with stuff like this. If you warp the interpretation of metaphor and symbol sufficiently, you find yourself down a rabbit hole (that's not a literal rabbit hole, btw), feeding on scraps of symbolism that you convert into evidence for the existence of mystical, cabalistic forces. Dan Brown's made a career out of it. It's a pity because you miss out on all the fascinating history and poetry that underlie these symbols and metaphors. The end result is paranoia (plus some bizarre message board posts).

1 hour ago, Kimba said:

FAITH ALONE SAVES SOULS.

But (and this is where I sympathize with Scotty's position and find yours deeply unpleasant) that does not mean that good works in any way damage the soul's salvation. They may not be necessary, but they are inextricably linked with the journey of following Christ. Your concept of the economy of salvation seems aimed at impeding that journey for the majority who take it, by denying any relevance to the teachings of Jesus which, most neutral observers would probably agree, are the most worthwhile things the Bible has to offer. Instead, you make the flawed claim that all of this is solely for the Jews and instead you focus entirely on the teachings of a fanatical convert recorded in his letters, a convert whose mission was to spread Christ's gospel to the gentiles, not ditch it because of its awkwardly Judaic context.

Edited by DonnyTJS
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1 minute ago, Kimba said:

@ Donny.  Lol, we are SINNERS, how could we ever have anything to do with our salvation.  That is what is evil about humans - thinking they are equal to God Almighty, who ALONE paid for our sins. 

Which simply means you don't understand what I wrote.

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Just now, DonnyTJS said:

Which simply means you don't understand what I wrote.

No it means you don't understand that no-one can earn their salvation and you don't understand the MYSTERY given to the apostle Paul.

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