Question Time Tonight

[Coldo]

It wasn't a good night for anyone. That Kate Andrews, arrogant with an annoying voice. Paul Nuttall, is damaged good even for UKIP standards. The Labour wummin hardly uttered a peep. Len was full of clichés, but kept on grtting cut off by Dumbleby.

Ruth is very arrogant these days, and dod anyone hear her say "Love" to one of the other women on the panel? Sexist if you ask me.

Edited March 30, 2017 by Coldo

[King Of Paisley]

Says it all when Tank Commander's share of the vote is less than that of Maggie. And she screeches about mandates!

The list vote system has a lot to answer for when it returns screaming fat harpies like her. Not to mention Turdo and Annie Wells

 

[Grim Jim]

8 minutes ago, Coldo said:

.

Ruth is very arrogant these days, and dod anyone hear her say "Love" to one of the other women on the panel? Sexist if you ask me.

I did.   70's comedy gold.

[DonnyTJS]

On 29/03/2017 at 11:06 PM, Caledonian Craig said:

Well there are gullible ones who say they are doing out of love for Scotland but MP's think pound signs not love.

If that's a swipe at me following on from the discussion we had in the Indy2 thread a while back then it's a misrepresentation of what I said. I will try to explain once more on the off-chance that you really can't get your head around what is a very simple point.

I said that 'sentiment' was a major factor in successive UK governments wishing to prevent Scottish independence; not the sole factor, but one that you are wrong to dismiss. 'Sentiment' has nothing to do with love nor anything to do with Scotland per se: it's an emotional attachment to 'Britain'. Most Westminster MPs feel that they are British. This is simply a function of most of them being middle-class Englishmen, although of course many people in this isles who are neither middle-class nor English also feel 'British'. Scotland, England and Wales have been a formally unified polity for over 300 years - longer than almost all other modern nation states have existed. The concept of Scottish independence undermines these people's identity, and no one likes their identity being undermined. That is what I mean by sentiment.

[Caledonian Craig]

1 hour ago, DonnyTJS said:

If that's a swipe at me following on from the discussion we had in the Indy2 thread a while back then it's a misrepresentation of what I said. I will try to explain once more on the off-chance that you really can't get your head around what is a very simple point.

I said that 'sentiment' was a major factor in successive UK governments wishing to prevent Scottish independence; not the sole factor, but one that you are wrong to dismiss. 'Sentiment' has nothing to do with love nor anything to do with Scotland per se: it's an emotional attachment to 'Britain'. Most Westminster MPs feel that they are British. This is simply a function of most of them being middle-class Englishmen, although of course many people in this isles who are neither middle-class nor English also feel 'British'. Scotland, England and Wales have been a formally unified polity for over 300 years - longer than almost all other modern nation states have existed. The concept of Scottish independence undermines these people's identity, and no one likes their identity being undermined. That is what I mean by sentiment.

Not you no. It is a general estimate of Westminster. Read my comment I was following on about Westminster governments and I stand by that. We all know what motivates governments and it ain't sentiment it is all about how well they can feather their own nests as the cash for questions scandals clearly shows. You may get a handful of MP's who let sentiment in but at the end of the day that is normally washed away by the need to tow the party line ie they may disagree inwardly with a policy but vote against that to follow party orders. 

[86glebestreet]

6 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Not you no. It is a general estimate of Westminster. Read my comment I was following on about Westminster governments and I stand by that. We all know what motivates governments and it ain't sentiment it is all about how well they can feather their own nests as the cash for questions scandals clearly shows. You may get a handful of MP's who let sentiment in but at the end of the day that is normally washed away by the need to tow the party line ie they may disagree inwardly with a policy but vote against that to follow party orders. 

We all know what motivates government  and it ain't sentiment,it is all about how well they can feather their own nests,

Will this include the Scottish government if they get independence 

[Caledonian Craig]

Well if it does then at least Scots will get their chance. After all why should Tories and Labour generally not voted for in Scotland have a monopoly on feathering their nests? They have had 300+ years of it so I say....enough.

[ShedTA]

From eu's negotiating doc. Looks like Spain has an eye on Gibraltar. 

[Guest flumax]

8 minutes ago, ShedTA said:

From eu's negotiating doc. Looks like Spain has an eye on Gibraltar. 

That looks like a fun one. 

[ShedTA]

11 minutes ago, flumax said:

That looks like a fun one. 

Theresa may will have to be at her conciliatory, listening best. she has shown how good she is at that.

[ShedTA]

33 minutes ago, flumax said:

That looks like a fun one. 

Its actually brilliant. Re Independence unionist brexiteers rant on about the Spanish veto. well this is the Spanish veto they should have been worried about!

Edited March 31, 2017 by ShedTA

[Guest flumax]

50 minutes ago, ShedTA said:

From eu's negotiating doc. Looks like Spain has an eye on Gibraltar. 

Don't really understand this though. I thought the EU represents all its members can't understand the process of involving one government in negotiations. 

 

How is this going to work. Spain say Gibraltar must stay in EU as Spain, to which UK will not agree. UK says its coming with us, Spain don't agree.... Where else is there to go? Special border arrangements, bit unfair for other member states and third nations, and GBNI Brits. 

 

It's a doozy 

[Ally Bongo]

Looks like Spain want joint sovereignty

[ShedTA]

24 minutes ago, flumax said:

Don't really understand this though. I thought the EU represents all its members can't understand the process of involving one government in negotiations. 

 

How is this going to work. Spain say Gibraltar must stay in EU as Spain, to which UK will not agree. UK says its coming with us, Spain don't agree.... Where else is there to go? Special border arrangements, bit unfair for other member states and third nations, and GBNI Brits. 

 

It's a doozy 

Yep looks like a no deal. or else this makes clear why Westminster want to retain control of our fishing grounds rather than Holyrood - barter them off to spain !!

13 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

Looks like Spain want joint sovereignty

yep could be one of their aims.

Also how will this sit with Sturgeon? if Gibraltar gets a special/seperate deal from the UK as part of article 50 legislation - is this not what the Scottish govt wanted for Scotland? how can Westminster even contemplate that without being completely biased against holyrood?

 

Did may not actually say "no special deals"  ?  I know situation is slightly different but how can they countenance a special deal for one and not for another?

Edited March 31, 2017 by ShedTA

[aaid]

25 minutes ago, ShedTA said:

Yep looks like a no deal. or else this makes clear why Westminster want to retain control of our fishing grounds rather than Holyrood - barter them off to spain !!

yep could be one of their aims.

Also how will this sit with Sturgeon? if Gibraltar gets a special/seperate deal from the UK as part of article 50 legislation - is this not what the Scottish govt wanted for Scotland? how can Westminster even contemplate that without being completely biased against holyrood?

Did may not actually say "no special deals"  ?  I know situation is slightly different but how can they countenance a special deal for one and not for another?

I think maybe you are getting your article 50 letters mixed up.

The UK's letter made no mention of Gibraltar whatsoever, therefore no special deal for Gibraltar as far as the UK's initial negotiating position is concerned.

The section above is from the EU's response which is effectively saying that Spain will have a veto on any agreements with respect to Gibraltar - you've got to love the old Spanish veto.

I think Gibraltar is going to be hugely problematic for the UK government.  While, it is not officially part of the UK - it is a British Overseas Territory - Gibraltarians are British Citizens and there probably isn't a group that is more committed than they are that want to be in both the UK and the EU.   

No-one is paying much attention to Gibraltar but I expect this is going to get very messy.  From Scotland's - or at least the Scottish Government's - perspective it feeds into a narrative of, you're prepared to do some form of deal over Gibraltar and Northern Ireland but not us, which is going to be a very difficult position to defend, short of now is not the time, eat your cereal,

[daviebee]

3 hours ago, 86glebestreet said:

We all know what motivates government  and it ain't sentiment,it is all about how well they can feather their own nests,

Will this include the Scottish government if they get independence 

Maybe, but then we'll find it a damned lot easier removing a Government that's acting against the people of Scotland's interests than we do at present.

[ShedTA]

32 minutes ago, aaid said:

I think maybe you are getting your article 50 letters mixed up.

The UK's letter made no mention of Gibraltar whatsoever, therefore no special deal for Gibraltar as far as the UK's initial negotiating position is concerned.

The section above is from the EU's response which is effectively saying that Spain will have a veto on any agreements with respect to Gibraltar - you've got to love the old Spanish veto.

I think Gibraltar is going to be hugely problematic for the UK government.  While, it is not officially part of the UK - it is a British Overseas Territory - Gibraltarians are British Citizens and there probably isn't a group that is more committed than they are that want to be in both the UK and the EU.   

No-one is paying much attention to Gibraltar but I expect this is going to get very messy.  From Scotland's - or at least the Scottish Government's - perspective it feeds into a narrative of, you're prepared to do some form of deal over Gibraltar and Northern Ireland but not us, which is going to be a very difficult position to defend, short of now is not the time, eat your cereal,

no mix up on my part at all - if you had read my earlier posts re the Spanish veto.

what I am saying is that this is the EU's starting position. This will be a major hurdle for them to clear. If the UK say

no then spain will not be happy - therefore the uk will have to compensate spain in some way or else there is no deal.

If the uk agree to it then the Westminster govt. will get hit with accusations of inconsistency from holyrood, as we too asked for a special deal.

that's my point. I am not confused by the documents.

So effectively you are saying the same thing as me.

Edited March 31, 2017 by ShedTA

[Orraloon]

I think some folk might be trying to make a giant rock out of a molehill here. I don't think Teresa May will have an issue with that clause. She will just go "Aye, fair enough". 

[ShedTA]

14 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

I think some folk might be trying to make a giant rock out of a molehill here. I don't think Teresa May will have an issue with that clause. She will just go "Aye, fair enough". 

a conciliatory approach you think? maybe but no track record so far.

[Orraloon]

40 minutes ago, ShedTA said:

a conciliatory approach you think? maybe but no track record so far.

No, just a common sense approach. Any discussion over the future of Gibraltar would be between the UK and Spanish governments anyway. I'm sure she would be quite happy if the EU wasn't interfering. 

[ShedTA]

5 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

No, just a common sense approach. Any discussion over the future of Gibraltar would be between the UK and Spanish governments anyway. I'm sure she would be quite happy if the EU wasn't interfering. 

but Gibraltar is currently covered by the same EU agreements as the rest of the UK. the UK handles all external affairs for Gibraltar. so by definition then there would be a different arrangement for Gibraltar? whether its common sense or not it is a different/ special arrangement surely?  May ruled anything like that out for Scotland.

as I have said above I know the circumstances are different but the principle is not.

[ShedTA]

13 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

No, just a common sense approach. Any discussion over the future of Gibraltar would be between the UK and Spanish governments anyway. I'm sure she would be quite happy if the EU wasn't interfering. 

Doesn't seem the guardian agree.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/31/future-of-gibraltar-at-stake-in-brexit-negotiations?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Tweet

 

[PapofGlencoe]

15 hours ago, DonnyTJS said:

If that's a swipe at me following on from the discussion we had in the Indy2 thread a while back then it's a misrepresentation of what I said. I will try to explain once more on the off-chance that you really can't get your head around what is a very simple point.

I said that 'sentiment' was a major factor in successive UK governments wishing to prevent Scottish independence; not the sole factor, but one that you are wrong to dismiss. 'Sentiment' has nothing to do with love nor anything to do with Scotland per se: it's an emotional attachment to 'Britain'. Most Westminster MPs feel that they are British. This is simply a function of most of them being middle-class Englishmen, although of course many people in this isles who are neither middle-class nor English also feel 'British'. Scotland, England and Wales have been a formally unified polity for over 300 years - longer than almost all other modern nation states have existed. The concept of Scottish independence undermines these people's identity, and no one likes their identity being undermined. That is what I mean by sentiment.

I agree with this.  There is sentiment for Britain among some sections of the community.  I think Better Together were shocked at the dearth of it  pre 2014 (roughly 25%) and that's why it was a Fear campaign rather than based on sentiment.  

Still exists though and probably has increased somewhat since positions have hardened.  In fact the recent poll could put it as high as 35%.  

All in all though, with democracy being about 50plus1% the Union is not won by sentiment.  It's won by cynicism.  Fair enough.  Yes has to try to convince and let's see.

 

 

Edited March 31, 2017 by PapofGlencoe

[exile]

19 hours ago, DonnyTJS said:

 Scotland, England and Wales have been a formally unified polity for over 300 years - longer than almost all other modern nation states have existed. The concept of Scottish independence undermines these people's identity, and no one likes their identity being undermined. That is what I mean by sentiment.

I've said it before but at the risk of repeating myself,I think the Yes side underestimated this and are in danger of underestimating it again. The attitude seems to be that Britishness can just be wished away as a vacuous artificial construct, or else, that anyone with the British sentiment must be a hardcore 'BritNat' who could never be won over. But I think on the contrary, trying to understand and accommodate this sentiment (within an independence settlement that has some sort of vision for residual Britishness) is one of the keys to winning people over (or at least neutralising active opposition).

I think there's a parallel even with the EU. Though the EU as an institution is often unloved, a lot of people (on both sides of the Channel) feel sorrow at its fracture, the breaking of the ties, and the injury to what the EU at its best was about.

By the way I am not myself getting sentimental about either of those unions, just saying people ought to be pragmatic about those who do. 

 

Edited March 31, 2017 by exile

[Grim Jim]

4 hours ago, ShedTA said:

Doesn't seem the guardian agree.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/31/future-of-gibraltar-at-stake-in-brexit-negotiations?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Tweet

 

 

Ha!   Not heard Mayhem utter words like these about Scotland

"when she said the UK was “absolutely steadfast in our support of Gibraltar, its people and its economy”"