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Next Scotland Manager ?


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34 minutes ago, Dogbiscuit said:

I thought Alex McLeish was a really lucky manager. Half the games he won with Scotland felt like we were riding our luck. I can't work out if this is a good attribute or not!

He was the same at Rangers and Birmingham too, even remember hin getting some unbelievably flukey wins for Motherwell against Killie.

Levein and Burley on the other hand were unlucky managers.

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4 minutes ago, Toepoke said:

He was the same at Rangers and Birmingham too, even remember hin getting some unbelievably flukey wins for Motherwell against Killie.

Levein and Burley on the other hand were unlucky managers.

I am a firm believer that you make your own luck. People like to say we were jammy away to France to win well first you need to score to be in a position to win the match. If Levein say had been in charge V France he would not even have contemplated trying to score V France.

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30 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

The reason why I would not want McLeish or Smith back is that manager's returning/player's returning are nearly always big disappointments. Best leaving the past in the past.

It's not too often than a manager returns to a job tbh. But as you mentioned Smith, in his second spell at Rangers he won 8 trophies and reached a European final.

 

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4 minutes ago, Toepoke said:

It's not too often than a manager returns to a job tbh. But as you mentioned Smith, in his second spell at Rangers he won 8 trophies and reached a European final.

 

Yes but be honest - that was at Rangers when they were a dominant force. I'd guess they could in any  semi-competent manager and the success would have been the same.

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10 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Yes but be honest - that was at Rangers when they were a dominant force. I'd guess they could in any  semi-competent manager and the success would have been the same.

Yeah Scottish clubs reach European finals all the time don’t they... 

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1 minute ago, ProudScot said:

Yeah Scottish clubs reach European finals all the time don’t they... 

Okay point taken but I still don't want ex-managers returning. It should be a once in a lifetime chance. In any case how long has Smith been out of management? Far too long to be pitched back in at international level. Same goes for McLeish.

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11 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Okay point taken but I still don't want ex-managers returning. It should be a once in a lifetime chance. In any case how long has Smith been out of management? Far too long to be pitched back in at international level. Same goes for McLeish.

Agree about Smith and McLeish.

just appoint a younger manager.

To be honest the least annoying appointment for me would be Gemmill. 

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3 hours ago, Bino's said:

When have we ever had a decent manager

Stein and Ferguson never got us to where they should have

Rest were average then underwhelmed

Smith was closest come in recent times and now walked away twice

Just give it to Scotland Gemmill, at least he wants it

That’s a bit of an odd view on things. 

Jock Stein died before he could take us to the World Cup in 1986. Who knows what would have happened if he hadn’t died in Cardiff although our group in the finals was very difficult so I doubt he’d have done much better than Fergie. I’ll disregard the European Championships for Stein as it was very difficult to qualify for that until 1996 (although Roxburgh got us there in 1992). I’m not sure about his stint in 1965 but from 78-85 he got us to two world cups out of two. 

Ferguson was a caretaker manager really. God Almighty himself wouldn’t have got us out of that group in Mexico. Bearing in mind we were the lowest seed at that tournament we actually did pretty well to get a point. 

Roxburgh got us to one Euro out of two (qualifying for Euro 92 was an amazing achievement as there were only 8 teams there) and one World Cup out of two. Not a bad record (decent even?) that most of us would love now. 

Craig Brown got us two two tournaments in a row and was a flea’s baw hair from getting us to a third. 

All four of these guys did a decent job for us with the players available. 

Although we never got into the second round of a tournament, from 86 onwards we were never favourites to get out of any group. 

Smith hardly walked away twice. He left us once and doesn’t fancy the job for a second time. He’s 69 and is enjoying his retirement. I also wouldn’t compare Smith to Stein, Roxburgh or Brown as he didn’t actually achieve anything with us. 

I bet Gemmill (or McLeish for that matter) would do a decent job for us and with the new way to qualify, that might just be enough. 

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1 hour ago, Caledonian Craig said:

I am a firm believer that you make your own luck. People like to say we were jammy away to France to win well first you need to score to be in a position to win the match. If Levein say had been in charge V France he would not even have contemplated trying to score V France.

Well we did have Faddy on the park so it was always possible, even if Levein was in charge. Problem is Levein didn't rate Faddy so might not have played him.

I was more thinking of Georgia at home. I think Craig Beattie came on to score with his shin in the last minute of the game. Our hopes were almost extinguished up until that moment. We took that campaign to the wire, but there were so many defining moments where it all could have been a flop! And most of them seemed to be under McLeish.

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1 minute ago, Dogbiscuit said:

Well we did have Faddy on the park so it was always possible, even if Levein was in charge. Problem is Levein didn't rate Faddy so might not have played him.

I was more thinking of Georgia at home. I think Craig Beattie came on to score with his shin in the last minute of the game. Our hopes were almost extinguished up until that moment. We took that campaign to the wire, but there were so many defining moments where it all could have been a flop! And most of them seemed to be under McLeish.

Luck shone on us at Anfield all those years ago though in the play-off V Wales getting a penalty that never was. Didn't make Ally McLeod a lucky manager did it?

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17 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Okay point taken but I still don't want ex-managers returning. It should be a once in a lifetime chance. In any case how long has Smith been out of management? Far too long to be pitched back in at international level. Same goes for McLeish.

Jock Stein managed Scotland twice and didn’t do a terrible job the second time. 

I didn’t really want Smith and the thought of McLeish returning doesn’t really fill me with excitement but arbitrarily ruling out people because they’ve managed us before seems a bit daft. 

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1 minute ago, Texas Pete said:

Jock Stein managed Scotland twice and didn’t do a terrible job the second time. 

I didn’t really want Smith and the thought of McLeish returning doesn’t really fill me with excitement but arbitrarily ruling out people because they’ve managed us before seems a bit daft. 

Well at least Stein stayed in management unlike Smith and McLeish who have been out of management (between them) almost a decade. That is no way to be put into the national job. Sorry.

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On 06/02/2018 at 2:10 AM, DonnyTJS said:

You are being remarkably, and pointlessly, tenacious about this. What has either his accent or not throwing his hat into the ring for the Scotland job got to do with it? Plenty of Scots on here without an approved accent, and plenty of Scottish managers who would rather hold out for a high-paying league gig if there were a likelihood of one.

I can only assume it's because your original post on Allardyce showed that you had no idea about his family background but for some reason you're unwilling to admit that you weren't aware of this ...

 

Now, it should be obvious to even the most fervent Caledonian Buddhist that Allardyce is considerably more Scottish than His Serene Holiness, and yet you persist in denying the fact. Having a Scottish family doesn't necessarily mean that he sees himself as Scottish (although it would be unlikely that he didn't acknowledge it as part of his identity), but in terms of his eligibility that isn't the point. Were Scotland a passport-issuing independent nation, Allardyce would be handed one without a murmur.

The thing is, neither you nor anyone else can make a judgement on what nationality someone identifies as. In terms of personal identity, nationality is a state of mind, informed by numerous factors. Humans being human however, we don't live in a homogenous, global utopia so more or less arbitrary rules are imposed, and by almost any of those standards, Allardyce is a Scot, whether he self-identifies as such or not.

On a separate issue, I know Buckielugger meant the phrase in a totally harmless sense but 'Scottish blood', or indeed blood of any nationality, is a metaphor that we should consign to the dustbin of history, imho.

Agree 100% and yes my "blood" remark was merely trying to make it as clear as i could, to someone who seemed very ignorant, that all of Allardyce's family cone from Scotland ....

And given how frequently people complain so and so isnt Scottish etc, we do now live in a world where people move so much more often, and where more and more people will have two, three or more different national backgrounds in their make-up.

It's why football allows qualification by country of birth, country of parents' birth, country of grandparents' birth, and even country grown up in. 

And if, for example, any refugees now in Scotland grow up as talented footballers, i will be totally delighted if they get a chance to play for Scotland.

 

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I've always thought that the issue with Scotland managers is that with the exception of Stein and Ferguson they start thinking outside the box

Roxburgh and Brown stayed inside it during the qualifying rounds but then started tinkering when we got to the finals - Alan McInally over McCoist in the opening game of Italia 90 being an obvious example and Brown with McCoist again against England during Euro 96 

Burley and Levein thought they knew more than everyone else and did it in the qualifiers - Burley with Iwelumo and Levein dropping McFadden and the Prague experiment

Strachan had loads of examples mostly after we beat Eire at Celtic park

Edited by Ally Bongo
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3 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

It is a regular occurence you know that clubs go back down after one season. And lets remember he had got them there plus don't overlook the fact that Norwich were well-positioned in 7th in the league the following season when he was sacked. I think it is very fair to say if you were to ask the fans of every club he has managed the fans would speak favourably of him.

I'm sure fans of his previous club's would speak favourably of him and I'm sure he is a good manager at that level, but the bottom line is that in his one and only crack at the top level he failed. And, yes lots of clubs do go straight back down after promotion, but some dont, Eddie Howe's Bournemouth being an example and at very least that's the level we need our next manager to be. But as you said, Neill is still young so he has plenty of time to improve.

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22 minutes ago, stevenmcn said:

I'm sure fans of his previous club's would speak favourably of him and I'm sure he is a good manager at that level, but the bottom line is that in his one and only crack at the top level he failed. And, yes lots of clubs do go straight back down after promotion, but some dont, Eddie Howe's Bournemouth being an example and at very least that's the level we need our next manager to be. But as you said, Neill is still young so he has plenty of time to improve.

Going by your thought processes then Roxburgh and Brown would never have got the job. And look how they did in the job compared to others. Very well thanks.

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21 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Going by your thought processes then Roxburgh and Brown would never have got the job. And look how they did in the job compared to others. Very well thanks.

Yeah, cause my current thought process is relevant to the game 25-30 yrs ago eh.

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7 minutes ago, stevenmcn said:

Yeah, cause my current thought process is relevant to the game 25-30 yrs ago eh.

And your choice is? David Moyes? He has had a string of failed jobs as your arm since he left Everton.

You see we could all sit here all day ripping apart every single candidate up in the poll at present for one reason or another. There is no massive stand-out candidate that wants the job. In recent times we've went for managers who have managed at top clubs and been successful and it has ended in failure and bitter recriminations. In short in no way is it any guarantee of success in the Scotland job is it just because they have managed at top clubs.

Edited by Caledonian Craig
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2 hours ago, Texas Pete said:

That’s a bit of an odd view on things. 

Jock Stein died before he could take us to the World Cup in 1986. Who knows what would have happened if he hadn’t died in Cardiff although our group in the finals was very difficult so I doubt he’d have done much better than Fergie. I’ll disregard the European Championships for Stein as it was very difficult to qualify for that until 1996 (although Roxburgh got us there in 1992). I’m not sure about his stint in 1965 but from 78-85 he got us to two world cups out of two. 

Ferguson was a caretaker manager really. God Almighty himself wouldn’t have got us out of that group in Mexico. Bearing in mind we were the lowest seed at that tournament we actually did pretty well to get a point. 

Roxburgh got us to one Euro out of two (qualifying for Euro 92 was an amazing achievement as there were only 8 teams there) and one World Cup out of two. Not a bad record (decent even?) that most of us would love now. 

Craig Brown got us two two tournaments in a row and was a flea’s baw hair from getting us to a third. 

All four of these guys did a decent job for us with the players available. 

Although we never got into the second round of a tournament, from 86 onwards we were never favourites to get out of any group. 

Smith hardly walked away twice. He left us once and doesn’t fancy the job for a second time. He’s 69 and is enjoying his retirement. I also wouldn’t compare Smith to Stein, Roxburgh or Brown as he didn’t actually achieve anything with us. 

I bet Gemmill (or McLeish for that matter) would do a decent job for us and with the new way to qualify, that might just be enough. 

Stein took us to 82 and underwhelmed

Ferguson 86 disaster, falls out with two best players etc

Roxburgh qualified us for the euros, which was a great achievement, but out of a qualifying group where Romania were bizarrely a first seed

My point is that after Stien and Fergie we haven't had good managers

Andy Roxburgh and Craig Brown were not good managers, they were punted into the role from the largs mafia and did not do what was even expected with the players we had during those times

Last time we qualified we had Paul Lambert and John Collins in midfield with Colin Henry at the back, who couldn't have qualified us

After that it's been a shambles

Smith is only one who seemed to get most out of players

Edited by Bino's
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1 hour ago, Bino's said:

Stein took us to 82 and underwhelmed

Ferguson 86 disaster, falls out with two best players etc

Roxburgh qualified us for the euros, which was a great achievement, but out of a qualifying group where Romania were bizarrely a first seed

My point is that after Stien and Fergie we haven't had good managers

Andy Roxburgh and Craig Brown were not good managers, they were punted into the role from the largs mafia and did not do what was even expected with the players we had during those times

Last time we qualified we had Paul Lambert and John Collins in midfield with Colin Henry at the back, who couldn't have qualified us

After that it's been a shambles

Smith is only one who seemed to get most out of players

I would agree on Roxburgh to a certain extent but Craig Brown was a decent manager for us. Not fantastic but decent. 

He took us to Euro 96 where we were damn unlucky not to get out of a group which included the hosts and The Netherlands. We have a good account of ourselves at France 98 as well until the disaster against Morocco.

Granted, Brown had some better players to choose from than recent managers have had but that was hardly his fault.

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Just one more point for those still thinking we should have kept strachan. One thing that always grated me was him talking down our game. He was obsessed and brainwashed by the English game.

whilst on BT sport he said Rodgers was only at Celtic because of the CL and he had to put up with the boring domestic games. The guy in charge of the national side should never talk down our game.

this kind of ties in with my point yesterday, we must above all else appoint a manager who does not see the English game like the sky sports generation do. Playing championship or even an EPL bench warmers is not the answer. 

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On 10/02/2018 at 8:52 AM, BigLewy said:

I know we probably could never get alex ferguson(he not wanting to do it) but surely you have to ask these guys,its only answer one way or another.His influence on certain players is immense,young Scott McTominay seems to be swaying towards England now,but if Ferguson was manager im sure a young player like that would hang on every word Ferguson spoke.Scotland needs all the young talent out there.Obviously if Ferguson didn't want it I would take a gamble on Alex Neil.As long its not Alex Mcleish maybe he doesn't want it now after looking on this site seeing he's got no support.

Ask Sir Alex he can only say no!Im sure its painless.

The guy is 76 years old ffs. 

I don’t want to sound ageist here but the guy probably has trouble remembering where he left his slippers never mind remebmbering who our players are and what position they play. 

He’s been out of touch with Scottish football for so long, he probably wouldn’t even have a scooby about our players in the first place apart from Darren Fletcher. 

Lets let the guy enjoy his retirement in peace. 

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