5 in midfield name them

[borojock]

4 hours ago, andyD said:

I'm with them.. We all accept the defense needs protection but Fletcher and McArthur have shown time and again that that's not something they can actually do even when it's 100% their task for the 90 minutes.

We lost Brown, so why someone like McDonald, Bridcutt or Shinnie hasn't been drafted in, I don't know.

Strachan seems to have learnt with Fletcher and I'll be surprised if he starts.. he's gone from captain against Italy, France, Lithuania, Slovakia and England.. to being benched for Slovenia and the England draw. We started both games with Brown and Morrison, with McArthur coming on in the later. Fletcher has dropped well down the pecking order, so I'd expect Morrison and McArthur to start.

For me, there's an outside chance of the 3421 making a reappearance. Strachan like to spring the odd surprise, as he did against England. Packing the midfield to try and shut down Hamsik isn't the worst idea ever, and we have two center mids who just knocked in 2 goals at the weekend. Could we see this?

Gordon
Berra - Mulgrew - Tierney
Anya - McArthur - Morrison - Robertson
McGregor - McGinn
Griffiths

 

You lost me at Bridcutt im afraid 

I genuinely don't know where all these Darren Fletcher isnt good enough for squad or first 11 have come from.

The guy has 78 international caps, 321 PL games, played in the CL 66 times. Over the last 2 /12 seasons has probably played the most amount of game time in the PL of any Scottish player.

Leadership qualities of captaining Scotland, Stoke and West Brom. Big game experience & temperament CL & FA Cup finals & big premiership game. Knows what it takes to win games (5 PL titles, 1 FA cup title, 1 CL Title). Passion about the country and team regularly turns up when not selected in the starting 11. 

And your suggesting Liam Bridcutt would be a better option.

Perhaps he didn't play great in the last couple of games but which players did in those games and yes i would probably have Brown in front of him but after Brown there is no-one better equipped in our squad to play the central defensive role.    

[Bzzzz]

5 hours ago, Toepoke said:

 Aye. We've all got to talk like pirates n'all. Aaaaaarrrrrrrr.

 

[1ANDYP]

          fletcher mcginn           

fraser , Morrison, Phillips/mcregor or snoddy

 

[Third Lanark]

17 hours ago, Morrisandmoo said:

No Scott brown doesn’t. He retains possession unbelievably well. It just so happens when he makes one bad pass a bunch of complete d-heads in the home support boo him, so it sticks in your mind.

Somebody did some analysis a wee while back on here that demonstrated he was one of the top midfielders in Europe re retaining possession. The analysis also demonstrates that it translates into his scotland performance, where his pass completion rate and ball retention consistently places him as one of the top performers on the park.

From a subjective point of view I also think he has a much stronger presence on the park vs Fletcher. We also win more when he is on the park vs fletcher.

So I dont think you have a valid point.

I'd be surprised by that. I'm just going by what I see when he plays for us, but I think folk equally dismiss Fletcher too easily.

[calmc92]

                             Gordon

Tierney       Mulgrew        Berra       Robertson

                   Fletcher      Morrison

   Forrest           Snodgrass         Phillips

                           Griffiths

 

Maybe not 100% the team I would pick but i'm pretty sure this will be the lineup. Darren Fletcher has to play if we are missing Scott Brown in a game of this importance, you can't underestimate how valuable having someone with his experience will be. Also the fact he is a leader and he won't be fazed by the importance of the match.

I'd happily see Fraser start over Forrest but we all know Forrest will start.

Can see Snodgrass starting now he's backing playing. Hopefully has a bit of confidence and match sharpness back because he can be a threat but has a big point to prove after the last couple performances.

I think the only reason McGregor wasn't called up is because of the amount of players already in that position. I think he is good enough but you can't just go pick lots of the same kind off player. He's no worse than some of them that were already called up, he probably lost out due to his international experience and with it being the last 2 group games so it wouldn't be a surprise he did get game time.

[Davied14]

I'll be very surprised of Strachan doesn't pick:

Gordon, Teirney, Berra, Mulgrew, Robertson, McArthur, Fletcher, Morrison, Forrest, Griffiths & Phillips.

[ErsatzThistle]

Got a funny feeling he'll surprise us all and start John McGinn.

[deso1]

I would pick mcginn,fletcher,morrison,forrest  and Phillips.

Strachan will pick fletcher,mcarther,morrison,forrest  and Phillips.

nothing more needs said.

[andyD]

17 hours ago, borojock said:

You lost me at Bridcutt im afraid 

I genuinely don't know where all these Darren Fletcher isnt good enough for squad or first 11 have come from.

The guy has 78 international caps, 321 PL games, played in the CL 66 times. Over the last 2 /12 seasons has probably played the most amount of game time in the PL of any Scottish player.

Leadership qualities of captaining Scotland, Stoke and West Brom. Big game experience & temperament CL & FA Cup finals & big premiership game. Knows what it takes to win games (5 PL titles, 1 FA cup title, 1 CL Title). Passion about the country and team regularly turns up when not selected in the starting 11. 

And your suggesting Liam Bridcutt would be a better option.

Perhaps he didn't play great in the last couple of games but which players did in those games and yes i would probably have Brown in front of him but after Brown there is no-one better equipped in our squad to play the central defensive role.    

I'm not suggesting Bridcutt starts (as you can see from the 11 i posted), but I'm surprised we haven't bought in a player who does a similar job to Brown, since he's been forced to drop out.

As for Fletcher.. yes, a long and decorated career. But he has been very very poor for us for a year or two now. Ineffectual, badly positioned, constantly giving the ball away and didn't stop goals that he should have. I haven't seen him for Stoke this season, other than one highlight reel where he got ruined by Morata (no particular shame in that), but Stoke are hardly a quality side. They've bottom half of the premier league and they'll just be glad to stay up.

I reject a lot of the mystique of the English premier league. two thirds of the sides in the premier league are pretty rubbish. The top 6 have themselves mostly sorted out, the rest are pretty much just scrabbling to stay up and have very little quality over championship sides. That's evidenced by the likes of Bournemouth finishing 9th last season and already this season you can see respectable starts for Burnley, Huddersfield, Watford and even Brighton. Quality-wise there's really no gap between the top end of the Championship and the bottom half of the Premier League. For his part, Bridcutt was the first choice for a side which spent the majority of last season in the playoff spots of the Championship. When I saw him play he was solid, dependable and kept the ball well. He wouldn't be my first choice to replace Brown, but to dismiss him is frankly silly. Given the age of our current defensive mids, I'd be surprised if the three players I mentioned aren't in the squad in a few years (Fletcher is 34, remember).

For me one of the main problems with Fletcher which shows even in his club performances is his pass completion. Defensive mid is a vital position and what you absolutely must not do in that area of the pitch is give the ball away. Fletcher has, for the last few years, had a very low pass completion rate. And it's not like he's Barry Bannan, trying hollywood balls to the wingers all the time. Yet his pass completion is just 79%. So more than 1 in 5 passes go astray. You look at James Morrison for comparison (generally seems as a more attacking player, so likely to be trying riskier passes) and he's up at 88%. 1 in 5 to 1 in 10 is a massive difference. Morrison isn't a particularly spectacular passer of the ball, but he's a LOT more reliable than Fletcher is. For the record, McDonald and Bridcutt are both over 85%, Tom Cairney's a 91, and even Bannan who sprays the ball around all over the place is at 83%. Again, (cos i thinkit's worth reinforcing) if you give Fletcher the ball, assuming he doesn't give it away by being tackled, he will hand it to the opposition 1 in 5 times.

Fletcher still has attributes that are useful. He's a leader, and he has respect of other players due to what he's done in his career. But he's frankly a bit of a liability at this point. His defensive awareness seems to have gone down the toilet and he gives the ball away far more than is acceptable, something that is especially important at international level. You might think that citing his pass completion from just this season (given it's only 7-8 games in) is unfair, so last season, in his 38 appearances for West Brom he had a pass completion under 77%. Thing is, you go back to his Man Utd days and he's up at 90. He's not that player any more tho. Sadly, he's playing for low end Premier League sides for a reason.

He's worth a squad spot for his influence (much as Kolo Toure was for Celtic last season), but in a game this important, when probably the most important aspect of the upcoming game is controlling the midfield, I would not let Fletcher anywhere near the pitch. Sounds harsh, I'm sure, and I respect him for his career, but the player he is right now is not what we need for the coming game.

[Paulo2576]

Some noteworthy stats there for sure, but calling fletcher a liability is scandalous, he's not. Ok so maybe you don't rate the premiership but he has being playin 90 minutes every week for the past 3 years and the league is one of the best in the world. If he's that bad there's no way managers wouldn't drop him, there is far too much money not to mention their jobs at stake. As for  bridcutt , just let him sail away into memory, we've got a young exciting prospect in McGinn who actually is Scottish, let's give him the chance instead.

[calmc92]

17 minutes ago, andyD said:

I'm not suggesting Bridcutt starts (as you can see from the 11 i posted), but I'm surprised we haven't bought in a player who does a similar job to Brown, since he's been forced to drop out.

As for Fletcher.. yes, a long and decorated career. But he has been very very poor for us for a year or two now. Ineffectual, badly positioned, constantly giving the ball away and didn't stop goals that he should have. I haven't seen him for Stoke this season, other than one highlight reel where he got ruined by Morata (no particular shame in that), but Stoke are hardly a quality side. They've bottom half of the premier league and they'll just be glad to stay up.

I reject a lot of the mystique of the English premier league. two thirds of the sides in the premier league are pretty rubbish. The top 6 have themselves mostly sorted out, the rest are pretty much just scrabbling to stay up and have very little quality over championship sides. That's evidenced by the likes of Bournemouth finishing 9th last season and already this season you can see respectable starts for Burnley, Huddersfield, Watford and even Brighton. Quality-wise there's really no gap between the top end of the Championship and the bottom half of the Premier League. For his part, Bridcutt was the first choice for a side which spent the majority of last season in the playoff spots of the Championship. When I saw him play he was solid, dependable and kept the ball well. He wouldn't be my first choice to replace Brown, but to dismiss him is frankly silly. Given the age of our current defensive mids, I'd be surprised if the three players I mentioned aren't in the squad in a few years (Fletcher is 34, remember).

For me one of the main problems with Fletcher which shows even in his club performances is his pass completion. Defensive mid is a vital position and what you absolutely must not do in that area of the pitch is give the ball away. Fletcher has, for the last few years, had a very low pass completion rate. And it's not like he's Barry Bannan, trying hollywood balls to the wingers all the time. Yet his pass completion is just 79%. So more than 1 in 5 passes go astray. You look at James Morrison for comparison (generally seems as a more attacking player, so likely to be trying riskier passes) and he's up at 88%. 1 in 5 to 1 in 10 is a massive difference. Morrison isn't a particularly spectacular passer of the ball, but he's a LOT more reliable than Fletcher is. For the record, McDonald and Bridcutt are both over 85%, Tom Cairney's a 91, and even Bannan who sprays the ball around all over the place is at 83%. Again, (cos i thinkit's worth reinforcing) if you give Fletcher the ball, assuming he doesn't give it away by being tackled, he will hand it to the opposition 1 in 5 times.

Fletcher still has attributes that are useful. He's a leader, and he has respect of other players due to what he's done in his career. But he's frankly a bit of a liability at this point. His defensive awareness seems to have gone down the toilet and he gives the ball away far more than is acceptable, something that is especially important at international level. You might think that citing his pass completion from just this season (given it's only 7-8 games in) is unfair, so last season, in his 38 appearances for West Brom he had a pass completion under 77%. Thing is, you go back to his Man Utd days and he's up at 90. He's not that player any more tho. Sadly, he's playing for low end Premier League sides for a reason.

He's worth a squad spot for his influence (much as Kolo Toure was for Celtic last season), but in a game this important, when probably the most important aspect of the upcoming game is controlling the midfield, I would not let Fletcher anywhere near the pitch. Sounds harsh, I'm sure, and I respect him for his career, but the player he is right now is not what we need for the coming game.

You would love the film 'Moneyball'

[gaz7]

                            Gordon
               Berra - Mulgrew - Tierney
     Forrest - McArthur - Fletcher - Robertson
                   McGregor - McGinn
                              Griffiths

We went 352 v england and as slovakia are similar with hamsik controlling top of pitch and lobotka controlling out from defense i think this will be maybe how he goes. Im no great fan of forrest but he has played there for celtic and his work without ball sometimes goes unnoticed. With this formation mcarthur would be asked to stick with hamsik anytime he crosses into our half and mcginn would be asked to press lobotka in their half leaving their 2 centre half to deal with output from the back.

These players above could also be           Gordon
                                                Tierney- Berra - Mulgrew - Robertson
                                                            McArthur/Mcginn - Fletcher - 
                                                  Forrest- McGregor - Phillips
                                                                        Griffiths

Im excited and feel we can do it. but I have felt like this nearly every campaign since 2000 lol

[andyD]

49 minutes ago, calmc92 said:

You would love the film 'Moneyball'

heh fair. I'm not a believer that statistics tell you 100%, but for certain positions, there are stats that really do matter.

[calmc92]

1 hour ago, andyD said:

heh fair. I'm not a believer that statistics tell you 100%, but for certain positions, there are stats that really do matter.

Only winding you up. The stats obviously don't lie but I wouldn't always look too much into it. There's so many possible contributing factors that could have an effect on just a basic pass completion percentage. Then there's also what other things they could possibly bring to the team.

For example; you were saying about Fletcher's 79% comparing it to Morrison's 88% but you didn't mention Fletcher has played all 630 mins of Stokes 7 PL matches whereas Morrison has only made 4 appearances from West Broms in 7 PL games playing 206 mins, only completing 90 mins once, coming on as a substitute twice and going off as a substitute once. I could argue that Fletcher would be more fatigued which may result in wayward passes nearer the end of the game and would have attempted far more passes. Same kind of argument with Bridcutt etc. he's played his whole career in the championship except from 1-2 seasons with Sunderland where i'm sure he would have been a squad player at best, he's not been able to make the jump in quality to establish himself as a premier league midfielder year after year. He is a solid Championship player no doubt but will never be more than that. So not sure why you think he would make the grade for the international squad.

So really, just stating passing percentages is a bit of an unfair way to justify what you're saying.

[andyD]

15 minutes ago, calmc92 said:

Only winding you up. The stats obviously don't lie but I wouldn't always look too much into it. There's so many possible contributing factors that could have an effect on just a basic pass completion percentage. Then there's also what other things they could possibly bring to the team.

For example; you were saying about Fletcher's 79% comparing it to Morrison's 88% but you didn't mention Fletcher has played all 630 mins of Stokes 7 PL matches whereas Morrison has only made 4 appearances from West Broms in 7 PL games playing 206 mins, only completing 90 mins once, coming on as a substitute twice and going off as a substitute once.

So really, just stating passing percentages is a bit of an unfair way to justify what you're saying.

Aye, that's fair. I'm really citing them as an indicator, not at a golden rule as to why Fletch shouldn't play. Tho for reference, Morrison's pass completion has been significantly higher than Fletcher's ever since Fletcher left United. I think Morrison's lowest was 81% and you've got to bear in mind that includes times when he was playing as a winger, who you'd expect to have a much lower %.

For Fletch, I could build a portfolio, pull out highlights from games showing where he's in the wrong place, doing the wrong thing, failing to track his man, etc. It's not just about passing. He's just no the player he was. He used to be the first name on Man Utds team sheet, now he's moving from West Brom to Stoke. If he was still a quality player he'd have been picked up by a big club, he would have gone to Arsenal or Everton or such. All players drop off eventually, like I said he's 34 in a couple of months, but there's no denying he's had a fantastic career.

I've literally just watched the highlights of the Stoke Chelsea game.. He chests it on beautifully, splitting his own defense to set Pedro thru for the 2nd. He's done for pace as Morata goes round the outside for the 3rd (after Fletch pulls out of making the challenge when he should have) and he's busy ball watching and leaves Morata (who he was marking) alone to score the 4th. I know it's Chelsea, but he should really stop all three of those.

 

[Caledonian Craig]

I am getting glaring clues that Barry Bannan will start. Praise heaped onbhim over the last few days frpm the management tells me will start something like this:-

Craig Gordon

Kieran Tierney - Christophe Berra - Charlie Mulgrew - Andrew Robertson

James Forrest - Darren Fletcher - Barry Bannan - James McArthur - Matt Phillips

Leigh Griffiths

 

[romanticscot]

Barry Bannan is probably outside of the two injured Celtic lads, our most in form midfielder.  I think he has had three MoM awards this season, does that mean he is suited for Slovakia?  Debatable, but if form is a driving factor then its not a bad thing to have him possibly starting. 

[andyD]

I like Bannan. In an advanced role he's a big danger with his ability to turn, run at people and find a pass. The only problem is he can't shoot for love nor money. And for that reason I'd opt for McGinn or McGregor.

[Morrisandmoo]

19 minutes ago, andyD said:

Aye, that's fair. I'm really citing them as an indicator, not at a golden rule as to why Fletch shouldn't play. Tho for reference, Morrison's pass completion has been significantly higher than Fletcher's ever since Fletcher left United. I think Morrison's lowest was 81% and you've got to bear in mind that includes times when he was playing as a winger, who you'd expect to have a much lower %.

For Fletch, I could build a portfolio, pull out highlights from games showing where he's in the wrong place, doing the wrong thing, failing to track his man, etc. It's not just about passing. He's just no the player he was. He used to be the first name on Man Utds team sheet, now he's moving from West Brom to Stoke. If he was still a quality player he'd have been picked up by a big club, he would have gone to Arsenal or Everton or such. All players drop off eventually, like I said he's 34 in a couple of months, but there's no denying he's had a fantastic career.

I've literally just watched the highlights of the Stoke Chelsea game.. He chests it on beautifully, splitting his own defense to set Pedro thru for the 2nd. He's done for pace as Morata goes round the outside for the 3rd (after Fletch pulls out of making the challenge when he should have) and he's busy ball watching and leaves Morata (who he was marking) alone to score the 4th. I know it's Chelsea, but he should really stop all three of those.

 

Case closed really.

[slasher]

15 hours ago, romanticscot said:

Barry Bannan is probably outside of the two injured Celtic lads, our most in form midfielder.  I think he has had three MoM awards this season, does that mean he is suited for Slovakia?  Debatable, but if form is a driving factor then its not a bad thing to have him possibly starting. 

Strachan seemed to hint quite strongly at that last night in his presser but of course he could be trying to throw the Slovaks off the scent.

[noctonjock]

Bannan is a great passer of the ball but doesn't do the chasing which could be needed tonight . Not sure about his inclusion . He needs to bring his club form to the national team 

[andyD]

3 hours ago, noctonjock said:

Bannan is a great passer of the ball but doesn't do the chasing which could be needed tonight .

I'd suggest you've not seen him at club level for at least 3 years. He covers a massive amount of ground for Wednesday and is a proper little terrier when the opposition has the ball.

[Paulo2576]

58 minutes ago, andyD said:

I'd suggest you've not seen him at club level for at least 3 years. He covers a massive amount of ground for Wednesday and is a proper little terrier when the opposition has the ball.

I really rate him too. Happily see him in a Scotland team. 

[Bino's]

4 hours ago, noctonjock said:

Bannan is a great passer of the ball but doesn't do the chasing which could be needed tonight . Not sure about his inclusion . He needs to bring his club form to the national team 

his last good game for us was Lithuania September 2011

 

his career has generally gonebackwards from that point

 

he must be strachans love child to have been included so often

[Bino's]

if we're looking at playing fletcher and bannan together as two players who have routinely gone missing for Scotland over the last few years...up against hamsik