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Catalonia & the UK media blackout of events


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I don't see how the Spanish courts couldn't have locked up the ministers a couple of days earlier so I could have seen some protests :lol:

I saw someone putting a theory forwards that the reason behind Puigdemont going to Brussels is to force the Spanish government into attempting to extradite him.  That would achieve a couple of things, it would give the story even more of an international focus and would play it out.  Brussels as a destination is of course not an accident as its then slap bang in the middle of the EU institutions and parliament and will make it more difficult for the EU to ignore. 

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3 hours ago, aaid said:

I don't see how the Spanish courts couldn't have locked up the ministers a couple of days earlier so I could have seen some protests :lol:

I saw someone putting a theory forwards that the reason behind Puigdemont going to Brussels is to force the Spanish government into attempting to extradite him.  That would achieve a couple of things, it would give the story even more of an international focus and would play it out.  Brussels as a destination is of course not an accident as its then slap bang in the middle of the EU institutions and parliament and will make it more difficult for the EU to ignore. 

That escalated quickly ..

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/nov/03/european-arrest-warrant-issued-for-ex-catalan-leader-carles-puigdemont

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On 2/11/2017 at 2:38 PM, aaid said:

Writing this in the departure lounge at Barcelona airport on the way back from a couple if days in the fledging republic.  

TBH, if you weren't aware previously of the situation you would be hard pressed to notice anything particularly out of the ordinary, there are no tanks parked on Plaza Catalunya.   

Get the general sense that people are just getting on with it and waiting to see what happens.  Lots and lots of Catalan flags and Si banners on display from the balconies as you walk about, a few Spanish flags but very much in the minority.  

i wouldn't read anything into that though as similar to Scotland, the No side are a lot more reticent.

A bit of increased police presence around government buildings but nothing that outrageous, especially as yesterday was a public holiday.   The building with the most serious looking security funnily enough was what I think was the offices of the Spanish government in Barcelona, a bit like St Andrews House in Edinburgh. 

I`m not surprised at all by what you say . All parts of Spain have been used to massive public demonstrations ( political like anti ETA /NATO/etc) at different times since Franco`s death in mid 70s  (mixture of enjoying political freedom and other factors like open character and good weather) and Puigdemont`s lot and United Spain lot in October are just 2 more examples. Also worth remembering that we usually see Barcelona on the telly or on holidays  which has a high percentage of tourists/foreign students who can`t vote and civil servants who at present will tend to support independence parties while the rest of Catalonia will have clearer lines between strong support for independence and support for staying within Spain (usually poorer parts of Catalonia with high percentage of people from other parts of Spainj).

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7 hours ago, PapofGlencoe said:

To be fair i think it is difficult to completely recognise it as an independent state and i'm sympathetic to the Catalan right to decide.  I think it's extremely probable there is a majority (just) but need a bit more than 'probable' to start recognising independent states.

I think Sturgeon's comments have been correct up to this point.

And Scots Govt has spoken publically in favour of their right to decide.  It's all over the Spanish press. 

 

Can you give me one example of it being all over the Spanish press? I`ve looked at El Pais, El Mundo,ABC,Vanguardia and others and have seen no mention at all of Scottish govt.

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23 hours ago, ironbrew said:

Can you give me one example of it being all over the Spanish press? I`ve looked at El Pais, El Mundo,ABC,Vanguardia and others and have seen no mention at all of Scottish govt.

http://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20171102/432546203631/sturgeon-escocia-prision-govern.html

Yesterday.  Was about 5th story down online in a prominent bolded header.  There was also headlines in el pais too I think.  One of the others anyway. I remember reading it,can't find it now tho. Maybe updated.

I'm actually surprised but Scotland and Sturgeon's comments are usually noticed and picked up in the Spanish press.  It was given promince in the same articles as Merkel and Macrons after the UDI in most news articles as well.  She is 'known' if you know what I mean by name.

I've been following Spanish speaking press for a number of years now and it is refreshing to see that Scotland's opinion is generally understood and delineated much more clearly in Spain than in other countries.  Probs due to the Catalan issue.  It was made clear in all Brexit articles as well.

10 years ago inglaterra was the by word.  It isn't now.

Edited by PapofGlencoe
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On 11/3/2017 at 10:41 PM, ironbrew said:

I`m not surprised at all by what you say . All parts of Spain have been used to massive public demonstrations ( political like anti ETA /NATO/etc) at different times since Franco`s death in mid 70s  (mixture of enjoying political freedom and other factors like open character and good weather) and Puigdemont`s lot and United Spain lot in October are just 2 more examples. Also worth remembering that we usually see Barcelona on the telly or on holidays  which has a high percentage of tourists/foreign students who can`t vote and civil servants who at present will tend to support independence parties while the rest of Catalonia will have clearer lines between strong support for independence and support for staying within Spain (usually poorer parts of Catalonia with high percentage of people from other parts of Spainj).

i'm led to believe Barcelona is by a distance the least independence minded area with the rural areas far more in favour.  It is an international city - like Edinburgh with a high non-indigenous population.

Generally, the urban centres less in favour - apart from Girona.

There's certainly a mix between catalan heritage and above average salaries which brings more to the Yes side.

Aye, I think the family heritage thing runs much deeper and applies a harsher political divide than in Scotland - where most folk consider themselves Scottish.

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ive not verified this in any great detail but anecdotally from my catalan and spanish friends, it seems during the franco era he banned catalan language in places of work and encouraged large scale immigration into the Catalan area from other parts of Spain.  The people there now a product of that policy.

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2 hours ago, PapofGlencoe said:

ive not verified this in any great detail but anecdotally from my catalan and spanish friends, it seems during the franco era he banned catalan language in places of work and encouraged large scale immigration into the Catalan area from other parts of Spain.  The people there now a product of that policy.

During the Franco era, things like football matches and specifically FC Barcelona were among the only places people could speak Catalan in public.

On your second point, "encouraging" immigration to dilute the indigenous population is something we pretty much invented, ie., the Plantation of Ulster.

 

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2 hours ago, aaid said:

During the Franco era, things like football matches and specifically FC Barcelona were among the only places people could speak Catalan in public.

On your second point, "encouraging" immigration to dilute the indigenous population is something we pretty much invented, ie., the Plantation of Ulster.

 

Aye i don't know to what extent this was done deliberately to dilute...but seems a good bet.

My Catalan friends suggest it was..while the other Spanish suggest it was a way to help people get jobs..  

I think the catalans resented these emigrants a bit..i suppose like we've seen in many places.

I've not really read the books on it though.  It does have a whiff of the plantations about it but I think it was more poor workers than wealthy landowners.

 

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  • 1 month later...

Looks like a small majority for the Independence supporting parties in the election getting 70 out of 135 seats.

Possibly more significantly there are 78 seats that are pro-referendum which is a much more sizeable majority.

Turnout was very high at 82% so that destroys the Spanish arguments about a silent majority opposed to either independence or having a referendum.

Hard for Spain to legitimately refuse to endorse a referendum now.

Lets see who blinks first.

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4 minutes ago, DoonTheSlope said:

Who's won?

Im in Madrid watching the English France24. The unionists have just been on all fair away with themselves that they've won 

Now yon Catalan shitebag that done a runner is on saying he's won

The Pro-Independence Parties have a majority.  The largest party is one of the Unionist parties.  Rajoy's party came last.

To compare in Holyrood terms.   Labour are the largest party but the SNP and Greens have a majority between them, Ruth Davidson has finished behind even Willie Rennie.

Edited by aaid
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1 hour ago, EddardStark said:

Popular vote is 51/49 against separatism. I think Spain should go with an official referendum.

If the Spanish government do grant an official referendum then there'll be some amount of backtracking on here, twitter and the likes from certain quarters given 52/48 wasn't a clear enough majority 18months ago

:whistling::whistling::whistling:

 

As a Kermit the frog meme would say

"But that's none of my business" 🐸☕️

Edited by DoonTheSlope
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2 hours ago, EddardStark said:

Popular vote is 51/49 against separatism. I think Spain should go with an official referendum.

Firstly this wasn't a referendum.  Secondly, I think you are including the party that is neutral on independence but supports a referendum in your unionist figure.  Thirdly, "separatism"? Do you work for the BBC?

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38 minutes ago, Alibi said:

Firstly this wasn't a referendum.  Secondly, I think you are including the party that is neutral on independence but supports a referendum in your unionist figure.  Thirdly, "separatism"? Do you work for the BBC?

:ok: I believe that neutral party got 8 seats.

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22 hours ago, Alibi said:

Firstly this wasn't a referendum.  Secondly, I think you are including the party that is neutral on independence but supports a referendum in your unionist figure.  Thirdly, "separatism"? Do you work for the BBC?

I was actually trying to make the point that the Spanish Government can't simply carry on with a business as usual agenda. I thought  the Catalan Independence movement  wanted to separate from Spain and with that any ties to the monarchy. 

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  • 2 months later...

 Clara Ponsati, one of the Catalan politicians who fled to Belgium with Peugdemont in October is reported to have returned to St Andrews University where she is/was an Economics lecturer. If Spanish authorities issue a European detention order it could be interesting. Would it be Scottish Justice Minister who`d have to decide or someone in London? If former, could put SNP in difficult situation.

On 6/11/2017 at 4:33 PM, PapofGlencoe said:

Aye i don't know to what extent this was done deliberately to dilute...but seems a good bet.

My Catalan friends suggest it was..while the other Spanish suggest it was a way to help people get jobs..  

I think the catalans resented these emigrants a bit..i suppose like we've seen in many places.

I've not really read the books on it though.  It does have a whiff of the plantations about it but I think it was more poor workers than wealthy landowners.

 

Not too sure about Ulster plantations as I  think most of the Scots sent there were probably quite poor but in case of Catalonia, the vast majority of the "immigrants" from poorer parts of Spain especially Extremadura and Andalusia would be very poor and probably cheap labour for their Catalan masters. Mass tourism in Spain started under Franco in the Costa Brava and also under Franco the big car companies came to Catalonia -these facts will be forgotten or interpreted in different ways by modern Catalans according to their political views. Not sure if Franco had much say in where people went looking for work as at the same time many Spaniards also moved to other parts of Europe particularly Switzerland and Germany.  In Germany, Germans often talk of the huge part Spaniards and Italians played in the huge success of the German economy in the 60s and 70s and I think it was probably something similar in Catalonia.but meaning workers from other parts of Spain.  There was an article in El Pais the other day comparing Catalan and Scottish nationalism, full of generalisations (Catalan nationalism stronger in rural areas, Scottish in cities, etc.) but statistics did suggest support for Catalan independence is less strong among poorer people which often means in industrial areas where many people come from other parts of Spain or their parents or grandparents did and Spanish is still the first language. All generalisations of course   just as there are Scots with 4 Scottish grandparents who don`t support independence and people in Scotland with no Scottish family who`d vote for independence.

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On 3/10/2018 at 6:21 PM, ironbrew said:

 Clara Ponsati, one of the Catalan politicians who fled to Belgium with Peugdemont in October is reported to have returned to St Andrews University where she is/was an Economics lecturer. If Spanish authorities issue a European detention order it could be interesting. Would it be Scottish Justice Minister who`d have to decide or someone in London? If former, could put SNP in difficult situation.

Not too sure about Ulster plantations as I  think most of the Scots sent there were probably quite poor but in case of Catalonia, the vast majority of the "immigrants" from poorer parts of Spain especially Extremadura and Andalusia would be very poor and probably cheap labour for their Catalan masters. Mass tourism in Spain started under Franco in the Costa Brava and also under Franco the big car companies came to Catalonia -these facts will be forgotten or interpreted in different ways by modern Catalans according to their political views. Not sure if Franco had much say in where people went looking for work as at the same time many Spaniards also moved to other parts of Europe particularly Switzerland and Germany.  In Germany, Germans often talk of the huge part Spaniards and Italians played in the huge success of the German economy in the 60s and 70s and I think it was probably something similar in Catalonia.but meaning workers from other parts of Spain.  There was an article in El Pais the other day comparing Catalan and Scottish nationalism, full of generalisations (Catalan nationalism stronger in rural areas, Scottish in cities, etc.) but statistics did suggest support for Catalan independence is less strong among poorer people which often means in industrial areas where many people come from other parts of Spain or their parents or grandparents did and Spanish is still the first language. All generalisations of course   just as there are Scots with 4 Scottish grandparents who don`t support independence and people in Scotland with no Scottish family who`d vote for independence.

Agree with all of that.  All I would add is I don't think much happened to the scale we're talking about without Franco's involvement.  Vast demographic change did help his goals in that region.  Neither would I suggest 'the Catalans' were the masters in all of this.  Like all places; a few take advantage of the many.  

 

 

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  • 2 months later...
1 hour ago, Clyde1998 said:

The ultimate irony being that the Catalan nationalists were pivotal in bringing him down.

Presumably some sort of deal was in place - not necessarily to agree to support the results of the 2017 referendum - but to move the process forwards towards some form of settlement and as a start to drop the charges against the former Catalan government ministers.

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