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Catalonia & the UK media blackout of events


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37 minutes ago, euan2020 said:
  • I notice all the UK Media play along with the line from Scottish Referendum of calling the Catalonians "Separists"  - neber independence supporters

I've also heard them start to be referred to a secessionists. Has a slightly more revolutionary tone to it, possibly even more negative portrayal.

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the one I saw earlier which really stuck out was an article titled

"Carles Puigdemont: The man who wants to break up Spain"

Its not one man - its a movement. Of 3-4 million folk! and its about taking control of their own affairs. Similar to what the Tory Brexiteers did!  Not once did you see an article leading with  "Why the Torys want to break up Europe"

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Catalonia, to my mind, have looked pretty weak since 1st October, always on the back foot, waiting to see Spain blink. They haven't. Indeed, Rajoy and Spain have come across as incredibly strong. Puigdemont must see this. He now needs to grasp the initiative.

 

Edited by Stapes
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10 hours ago, biffer said:

I've also heard them start to be referred to a secessionists. Has a slightly more revolutionary tone to it, possibly even more negative portrayal.

'Secession' means leaving a larger polity without mutual agreement, which is a fairly accurate term as far as I can see. 

I agree with Stapes that Puigdemont doesn't seem to have played what appeared to be a strong hand (morally at least) very well in the past couple of weeks.

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On 5/10/2017 at 1:40 AM, Ally Bongo said:

It doesnt

It has it's own Police force which replaced both the Spanish Civil Guard (military wing) and Spanish National Police Corps in the early 90s

The rub is that the new Police force is completely civilian 

The Catalan Police refused to shut down polling stations which is why the Civil Guard was sent in by Madrid to disrupt the referendum

Is this true? Pretty sure there are Guardia Civil working in ports and airports etc in Catalonia just like anywhere else in Spain. Likewise there are Policia Nacional in Catalonia. Lots of those involved on the day of the referendum will actually be Catalans or have lived in Catalonia for many years. Catalan police are more like Policia Local in other regions of Spain.  Not sure what would happen with Scottish police if  there was a popular uprising for independence in Scotland but i suppose it`d be like now in Catalonia with some Catalan police in favour of independence and others against it, a reflection of Catalan society. Where did you read that the Catalan police refused to shut dwon the polling booths? Some have been accused of not doing enough to prevent people voting but hundreds of the booths were closed by Catalan police.

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11 hours ago, GhostZapper said:

the one I saw earlier which really stuck out was an article titled

"Carles Puigdemont: The man who wants to break up Spain"

Its not one man - its a movement. Of 3-4 million folk! and its about taking control of their own affairs. Similar to what the Tory Brexiteers did!  Not once did you see an article leading with  "Why the Torys want to break up Europe"

3-4 million? Sure I read that the population of Catalonia was just above 7 million with an electorate of about 5 million.. There was talk of about 2.2 million people voting for independence on 1st October, even allowing for the fact that many people couldn`t vote because of police action it seems extremely unlikely that as many as 3 million let alone 4 million support Catalan independence since every opinion poll on the subject suggests that the majority of people living in Catalonia are against it. Or are you including people from outside Catalonia who support independence too? Lots of comments on this thread about how peaceful the Catalan independence movement is but does that mean that the first Catalan government after independence will reach out to those who want to continue to be part of Spain ( this could be anywhere from 30 to 60% of the population, maybe even more ) ? Not just Puigmont and other public leaders of independence parties but those in the much smaller parties which are getting a lot of influence for the number of votes they`ve received.

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15 hours ago, GhostZapper said:

the one I saw earlier which really stuck out was an article titled

"Carles Puigdemont: The man who wants to break up Spain"

Its not one man - its a movement. Of 3-4 million folk! and its about taking control of their own affairs. Similar to what the Tory Brexiteers did!  Not once did you see an article leading with  "Why the Torys want to break up Europe"

How do the Tory’s want to break up Europe?

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On 10/3/2017 at 3:41 PM, kumnio said:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41493014

The King of Spain criticises the Catalans for organising the vote, however no comment about police brutality and the systematic beating of his 'subjects'.

@Tartantruck is his personal chauffeur when he’s in Scotland. Ask him what he thinks?

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7 hours ago, ironbrew said:

every opinion poll on the subject suggests that the majority of people living in Catalonia are against it. 

Really? I was under the impression that it was largely 50/50 with the  movement in recent years being towards Yes.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence_referendum,_2017

I can't seem to post my screen shot here but looking at the polls there it seems very split. Ignore the ones regarding the referendum as they were skewed towards Yes due to many unionists boycotting it.

Looking at polls on the independence issue and they seem to alternate towards who is in the lead. 

The last 8 having Yes leading 4 times and No leading 4 times. They range from an 8.3% lead for No and an 8.6% lead for Yes at the top end and a 1.5% lead for No and a 0.4% lead for Yes at the lower end. There also seems to be about 8-10% undecided. 

Spain will never risk an official referendum on those figures.

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3 hours ago, iainmac1 said:

Really? I was under the impression that it was largely 50/50 with the  movement in recent years being towards Yes.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence_referendum,_2017

I can't seem to post my screen shot here but looking at the polls there it seems very split. Ignore the ones regarding the referendum as they were skewed towards Yes due to many unionists boycotting it.

Looking at polls on the independence issue and they seem to alternate towards who is in the lead. 

The last 8 having Yes leading 4 times and No leading 4 times. They range from an 8.3% lead for No and an 8.6% lead for Yes at the top end and a 1.5% lead for No and a 0.4% lead for Yes at the lower end. There also seems to be about 8-10% undecided. 

Spain will never risk an official referendum on those figures.

One thing that is consistent in every single poll that i've seen is that a majority want an official referendum to be held. 

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3 hours ago, iainmac1 said:

Really? I was under the impression that it was largely 50/50 with the  movement in recent years being towards Yes.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence_referendum,_2017

I can't seem to post my screen shot here but looking at the polls there it seems very split. Ignore the ones regarding the referendum as they were skewed towards Yes due to many unionists boycotting it.

Looking at polls on the independence issue and they seem to alternate towards who is in the lead. 

The last 8 having Yes leading 4 times and No leading 4 times. They range from an 8.3% lead for No and an 8.6% lead for Yes at the top end and a 1.5% lead for No and a 0.4% lead for Yes at the lower end. There also seems to be about 8-10% undecided. 

Spain will never risk an official referendum on those figures.

 

1 minute ago, Parklife said:

One thing that is consistent in every single poll that i've seen is that a majority want an official referendum to be held. 

The irony being that after Spains reaction in recent weeks I would think a Yes result would be more likely now.

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12 hours ago, ironbrew said:

Is this true? Pretty sure there are Guardia Civil working in ports and airports etc in Catalonia just like anywhere else in Spain. Likewise there are Policia Nacional in Catalonia. Lots of those involved on the day of the referendum will actually be Catalans or have lived in Catalonia for many years. Catalan police are more like Policia Local in other regions of Spain.  Not sure what would happen with Scottish police if  there was a popular uprising for independence in Scotland but i suppose it`d be like now in Catalonia with some Catalan police in favour of independence and others against it, a reflection of Catalan society. Where did you read that the Catalan police refused to shut dwon the polling booths? Some have been accused of not doing enough to prevent people voting but hundreds of the booths were closed by Catalan police.

In the main the Guardia Civil were bussed in from other parts of Spain and were not Catalan residents, in case they were reluctant to take action against fellow Catalonians, regardless of their sympathies.   If you want parallels, look at the riots in Glasgow in 1919 when the army was called in but Glaswegian troops were confined to barracks for fear they would support the uprising.  There's also multiple pieces of footage of the Catalan police facing off to the Guardia Civil and protecting polling stations.

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Historically Guardia Civil were always posted well away from their home areas for this very reason. They also normally lived in barracks where they were stationed in part at least so they didn’t get friendly with locals or too attached to the community.

 

 

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18 hours ago, ironbrew said:

Is this true?

Whilst my opinions may be complete cack and rounded on by the board knowalls like a pack of wolves - i do try to be accurate when it comes to information :(

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 I am trying to work out  whether the referendum  was a fair reflection of the populations opinion given low turnout, and a practical boycott by no voters.  So I wonder If there was a legal referendum,  how likely would it be that there would be a turnout of 77% and not one of the additional votes goes to yes?

(Yes+No+votes needed to overhaul yes+1) /electorate 

(2,044,038+177,547+1,866,491+1) /5,313,564=76.9%

The turnout in the 2015 election was 74.95,  2012 67.76, 2010 58.78. So a referendum would have to beat a turnout greater than in recent years and given the 2015 was a proxy fought on a promise of a referendum, that might shed a light on likely turnout. 

There was 84.59% here in 2014. I find it interesting to that if the same turnout in catalonia and no additional yes votes, it would be 45-55. 

I still can't fathom if on average Catalans do wish for independence or not. It could be pretty close if Spain permits a legal vote. 

*Open to my calculations being queried*

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19 minutes ago, flumax said:

 I am trying to work out  whether the referendum  was a fair reflection of the populations opinion given low turnout, and a practical boycott by no voters.  So I wonder If there was a legal referendum,  how likely would it be that there would be a turnout of 77% and not one of the additional votes goes to yes?

(Yes+No+votes needed to overhaul yes+1) /electorate 

(2,044,038+177,547+1,866,491+1) /5,313,564=76.9%

The turnout in the 2015 election was 74.95,  2012 67.76, 2010 58.78. So a referendum would have to beat a turnout greater than in recent years and given the 2015 was a proxy fought on a promise of a referendum, that might shed a light on likely turnout. 

There was 84.59% here in 2014. I find it interesting to that if the same turnout in catalonia and no additional yes votes, it would be 45-55. 

I still can't fathom if on average Catalans do wish for independence or not. It could be pretty close if Spain permits a legal vote. 

*Open to my calculations being queried*

I think you're probably right, similar to Scotland, approximately half the population are in favour, approximately half are against.  Again similarly, independence supporting parties have a very small majority in the parliament with the main party forming a minority administration with support from a smaller pro-independence party.  That again probably reflects the split in Catalunya.

I think that the tactics of the Catalan Indy campaign in having mass demonstrations with hundreds of thousands of people out on the streets probably makes it look - to us - as if there is massive popular support, ie, pretty much everyone is in support, which isn't the case.

For all of that, while its interesting to compare the situation in Catalunya to that in Scotland, I'm not sure you can really make any assumptions on what is happening in Catalunya to what may happen in Scotland and vice versa. 

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Anyone read El Pais (in English?)

Wow! Makes the Daily Telegraph look almost reasonab.... nah, it doesn't, can't say that! But it's unbelievably biased. I'd love to be capable in Spanish to see what their 'proper' version is saying.

Spain are behaving really poorly regarding this. The last few polls I noticed before the crack down had a No lead - not by much, and a bit like Scotland, if not a bit closer it would be or would have been. Wonder what Spanish unionists (is that the right term?) in Catalonia are thinking. Maybe much like the Jock ones e.g take away our rights, we didn't make the new bridge or wind farm anyway ; you are better at telling us how to do things - or if there would be a change of opinion?

It's very interesting to follow though and especially if tomorrow does indeed bring a shut down of the Catalan parliament and elections in January which I believe the sitting government do not want to have - a bit like the Tories saying the 2016 Scottish parliament election is null and void and we need another one!

One thing though, as awful as the Tories are ;  the United Kingdom certainly are handling/handled our referendum/independence movement a 100 times better than the way Spain are behaving.

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13 minutes ago, weekevie04 said:

One thing though, as awful as the Tories are ;  the United Kingdom certainly are handling/handled our referendum/independence movement a 100 times better than the way Spain are behaving.

It's worth considering -

Westminster had the whole weight of the media behind them -Newspapers, TV and radio pumping out propaganda 24/7 for 2 years in the run up to the referendum

Madrid didnt

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3 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

It's worth considering -

Westminster had the whole weight of the media behind them -Newspapers, TV and radio pumping out propaganda 24/7 for 2 years in the run up to the referendum

Madrid didnt

Yes, one thing we lack in Scotland compared to Catalonia.

The more I think back to the referendum and how gutted I was at the time ; getting 45% was a brilliant achievement considering that last week of onslaught from the mainstream media. I was speaking to a couple of Quebecers (Quboicois?) and they were saying the same and they think we'll be independent before them ; but blethering a bit now, tomorrow will be very interesting if Spain are so stupid to close down the Catalan parliament and impose a new election on the Catalans for January.

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11 hours ago, aaid said:

In the main the Guardia Civil were bussed in from other parts of Spain and were not Catalan residents, in case they were reluctant to take action against fellow Catalonians, regardless of their sympathies.   If you want parallels, look at the riots in Glasgow in 1919 when the army was called in but Glaswegian troops were confined to barracks for fear they would support the uprising.  There's also multiple pieces of footage of the Catalan police facing off to the Guardia Civil and protecting polling stations.

I know some Policia Nacional and maybe Guardia Civil have been moved into Catalonia ( some staying on a cruiseship in Barcelona) but I was questioning that Catalan police force had replaced Guardia Civil and Policia Nacional since both forces are just as present in Catalonia as anywhere else in Spain and both have thousands of Catalan members. Also not all members of the Mossos are Catalan. In effect the three forces work together and are colleagues. I haven`t seen any of the multile footage you mention, just a few incidents where in moments of tension words have been exchanged . Reading the Spanish  (including Catalan) press I get the impression both sides of the divide seem to want to demonstrate that Mossos  have in some way been disloyal to Spain (Spanish centralist attitude) or pally with independence supporters (Catalan independence attitude) but in fact reality is probably that 95% of Mossos contributed in making voting difficult or impossible and got on with their jobs just like police officers anywhere else in Europe.  There is also footage of Mossos hugging Policia Nacional and exchanging phone numbers as Policia Nacional left their hotels and reports of hundreds of Mossos applying to join the Policia Nacional even though it would  mean a significant drop in salary. Would imagine last bit is invented or at least exaggerated but I haven`t read or heard anything to suggest that Catalan police are all rabid anti Spanish independence supporters either.

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2 minutes ago, ironbrew said:

I know some Policia Nacional and maybe Guardia Civil have been moved into Catalonia ( some staying on a cruiseship in Barcelona) but I was questioning that Catalan police force had replaced Guardia Civil and Policia Nacional since both forces are just as present in Catalonia as anywhere else in Spain and both have thousands of Catalan members. Also not all members of the Mossos are Catalan. In effect the three forces work together and are colleagues. I haven`t seen any of the multile footage you mention, just a few incidents where in moments of tension words have been exchanged . Reading the Spanish  (including Catalan) press I get the impression both sides of the divide seem to want to demonstrate that Mossos  have in some way been disloyal to Spain (Spanish centralist attitude) or pally with independence supporters (Catalan independence attitude) but in fact reality is probably that 95% of Mossos contributed in making voting difficult or impossible and got on with their jobs just like police officers anywhere else in Europe.  There is also footage of Mossos hugging Policia Nacional and exchanging phone numbers as Policia Nacional left their hotels and reports of hundreds of Mossos applying to join the Policia Nacional even though it would  mean a significant drop in salary. Would imagine last bit is invented or at least exaggerated but I haven`t read or heard anything to suggest that Catalan police are all rabid anti Spanish independence supporters either.

Would imagine that for an outsider to understand the finesse of hundreds of years of history is pretty much impossible.

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