Phew!

[phart]

1 hour ago, Larky Masher said:

Someone else was making claims about "rightness" and it was him I was replying to,  Sweatman's statement is more appropriate as the language "virtually seal the case in favour", "It appears Göbekli Tepe was.."One of its pillars seems to have served", "probably the worst day in history" is much more measured. 

What is happening here is the process of paradigm change. - Sweatman: lead scientist.

Yeah but the fact the civilization is 13000 years old isn't in dispute anymore. That was the sticking point. All scientists would say to Hancock in the 90's where is the evidence of a civilization anywhere 13000 years ago. That was the first point of contention, Hancock said he suspected there were civilisations about 13000 years ago. Science at time said show them to us then, where's the evidence? Which he couldn't do at the time.

Now we have some. Just cause he was right about civilisations doesn't mean it suddenly makes the rest of his idea correct. But the first hurdle has been cleared.

 

 

[phart]

41 minutes ago, Grim Jim said:

Don't mess with wild donkeys!

 

OK, so some early settlements / granaries / cultural meeting points seem to have come and gone.   Places where people first met in larger numbers perhaps.

I see they are described as "Pre-Pottery Neolithic".   That suggest to me a lack of beer!   I.E. folk will need clean, uncontaminated water, but with people living in larger groups there would be risk of epidemics (as well as occasional bad harvests) that could wipe out these early groups.   No need for extra terrestrial cataclysms.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic_Revolution#Disease

 

Yeah but the available evidence cited by scientists studying it say the comet was observed and written about and they also find a corresponding contemporary increase in materials found in a comet strike. plus greenland ice cores showing huge temperature

It might not be needed but you need to follow the physical evidence, so contemporary artwork of comet strikes, plus turning it into an observatory of the skies.

As the edinburgh uni website says

Furthermore, symbolism on the pillars indicates that the long-term changes in Earth’s rotational axis was recorded at this time using an early form of writing, and that Gȍbekli Tepe was an observatory for meteors and comets.

http://www.ed.ac.uk/news/2017/ancient-stone-confirms-date-of-comet-strike

It might not be needed but the evidence points to a meteor in the eyes of scientists who studied it,

 

[HUNTINGMcGREGOR]

2 minutes ago, phart said:

What is happening here is the process of paradigm change. - Sweatman: lead scientist.

Yeah but the fact the civilization is 13000 years old isn't in dispute anymore. That was the sticking point. All scientists would say to Hancock in the 90's where is the evidence of a civilization anywhere 13000 years ago. That was the first point of contention, Hancock said he suspected there were civilisations about 13000 years ago. Science at time said show them to us then, where's the evidence? Which he couldn't do at the time.

Now we have some. Just cause he was right about civilisations doesn't mean it suddenly makes the rest of his idea correct. But the first hurdle has been cleared.

 

 

I kind of agree but disagree - his main thrust from Hancock was that there were discrepancies in the puzzle of normally accepted and established timelines of human history. I think this has now given him credibility and his ideas and years of ideas/research should be given deeper discussion and consideration. Its a moving target, rather than him being simply "correct".

What I like about him, as opposed to say Daniken (DinnaeKen), is that Hancock never asks to be proved wrong and doesn't make assertions - he puts forward a hypothesis, and backs it up usually with the thoughts of specialists in their respective fields. It's more floating of an idea backed with some evidence that makes you think that his ideas are not wholly beyond consideration. His ideas were never in my mind beyond the fair and reasonable. He had produced enough evidence for me - such as the Piri Reis map, especially Antarctica pre Ice age, and the geology of the Sphinx, the tolerances within the Great Pyramid, and in particular, the ancient knowledge of the planets and stars. 

I am no specialist on this, but my challenge was that I am not religious, I just wanted to find out more about human history. I'm from a construction and engineering background, great knowledge has been lost somewhere on the timeline - established pre history doesn't work for me and I was always convinced by the thrust of Hancock's suggestions/ideas, had some substance.

 

 

[HUNTINGMcGREGOR]

10 hours ago, DonnyTJS said:

Agreed, it could well be that we are looking at the agricultural revolution being radically re-dated. To what extent this represents a paradigm shift I'm not sure, as the current paradigm still holds (hunter-gatherer to Neolithic revolution to, eventually, 'civilization') but within a reworked time-frame. My point was really regarding 'urban civilization' as this, in its conventional definition, requires elements that don't seem to be necessitated by the Göbekli Tepe discoveries so far. There's still clearly a huge amount of work to be done though.

Natural disasters destroying civilizations is well documented in the case of Minoan Crete.

Donny, if the Great Pyramids of Egypt and the Sphinx are dated accordingly, and if you consider they were not built by slaves but well looked after communities with agricultural food provision and lifestyle, then everything is turned on its head surely ? Göbekli Tepe will reveal more and more that challenges the conventional definition. There are layers and layers of construction. 

[phart]

1 minute ago, HUNTINGMcGREGOR said:

Donny, if the Great Pyramids of Egypt and the Sphinx are dated accordingly, and if you consider they were not built by slaves but well looked after communities with agricultural food provision and lifestyle, then everything is turned on its head surely ? Göbekli Tepe will reveal more and more that challenges the conventional definition. There are layers and layers of construction. 

As i noted above

Furthermore, symbolism on the pillars indicates that the long-term changes in Earth’s rotational axis was recorded at this time using an early form of writing, and that Gȍbekli Tepe was an observatory for meteors and comets.

They had writing, they had crops, we'll see in the future what else they had. They had people working on plotting and recording comets.

Obviously had tools and skills to carve these

[DonnyTJS]

2 minutes ago, HUNTINGMcGREGOR said:

Donny, if the Great Pyramids of Egypt and the Sphinx are dated accordingly, and if you consider they were not built by slaves but well looked after communities with agricultural food provision and lifestyle, then everything is turned on its head surely ? Göbekli Tepe will reveal more and more that challenges the conventional definition. There are layers and layers of construction. 

I'm sorry but I haven't read Hancock's work and I'm not sure what you're referring to. What dates does he give for the sphinx and pyramids, based on what evidence?

My (no doubt outdated) understanding re. the pyramids (which I know quite well, btw: I've been inside the Giza pyramids dozens of times, for what that's worth) is that due to the seasonal nature of agrarian production in the Nile valley (no fieldwork could be done while the Nile was in flood), you could have a vast, otherwise unemployed population working on the structures for a number of months each year.

[phart]

5 minutes ago, DonnyTJS said:

I'm sorry but I haven't read Hancock's work and I'm not sure what you're referring to. What dates does he give for the sphinx and pyramids, based on what evidence?

My (no doubt outdated) understanding re. the pyramids (which I know quite well, btw: I've been inside the Giza pyramids dozens of times, for what that's worth) is that due to the seasonal nature of agrarian production in the Nile valley (no fieldwork could be done while the Nile was in flood), you could have a vast, otherwise unemployed population working on the structures for a number of months each year.

It's not him it's two geologists that say the water marks on the sphinx means it's far far older than commonly thought. The Pyramids is much more complicated and i can't be arsed typing it out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_M._Schoch

above is the main geologist in question. It's his theory from studying it, others disagree. As is common in science.

Edited April 26, 2017 by phart

[DonnyTJS]

5 minutes ago, phart said:

As i noted above

Furthermore, symbolism on the pillars indicates that the long-term changes in Earth’s rotational axis was recorded at this time using an early form of writing, and that Gȍbekli Tepe was an observatory for meteors and comets.

They had writing, they had crops, we'll see in the future what else they had. They had people working on plotting and recording comets.

Obviously had tools and skills to carve these

Skills among Homo sapiens is unrelated to time - look at the paintings in Chauvet cave from over 30,000 years ago?

What's the evidence for 'writing'? That quote doesn't make sense: is it symbolism or writing? The two are not the same thing.

[phart]

14 minutes ago, DonnyTJS said:

Skills among Homo sapiens is unrelated to time - look at the paintings in Chauvet cave from over 30,000 years ago?

What's the evidence for 'writing'? That quote doesn't make sense: is it symbolism or writing? The two are not the same thing.

 

That quote is from Lead Scientist Sweatman " Furthermore, symbolism on the pillars indicates that the long-term changes in Earth’s rotational axis was recorded at this time using an early form of writing, and that Gȍbekli Tepe was an observatory for meteors and comets."

http://maajournal.com/Issues/2017/Vol17-1/Sweatman and Tsikritsis 17(1).pdf

There's the paper.

The symbolism encoded on pillar 43, including the date stamp, the ‘sunset’ icons, the  correct
ordering  of  the  preceding  zodiacal  signs,  and the ‘H-symbols’, demonstrates an early form of proto-writing  existed  at  some  point  between10,950 BC and9,530 BC. at least for astronomical observations. Given that the concepts represented   in   the   pillar   require   communication over  very  long  timescales,  a  similar  form  of proto writing might
have been in existence for many  centuries,  and possibly millennia,  even prior   to   10,950  BC.
For   example,   there   are many instances  of  paleolithic  cave  art  involving similar animals and other repeated abstract symbols (von Petzinger, 2016).

 

Edited April 26, 2017 by phart

[HUNTINGMcGREGOR]

2 minutes ago, DonnyTJS said:

I'm sorry but I haven't read Hancock's work and I'm not sure what you're referring to. What dates does he give for the sphinx and pyramids, based on what evidence?

My (no doubt outdated) understanding re. the pyramids (which I know quite well, btw: I've been inside the Giza pyramids dozens of times, for what that's worth) is that due to the seasonal nature of agrarian production in the Nile valley (no fieldwork could be done while the Nile was in flood), you could have a vast, otherwise unemployed population working on the structures for a number of months each year.

I'm afraid I am going to have to direct you to the book - the original version was 500+ pages and the updated version, where he, with new modern day technology available, admits he was up the wrong track with certain thoughts, so the revised edition is much longer. Be skeptical, as I was, but it is an enjoyable thought provoking read. The Sphinx could be as much as 30,000 years old when worked out via Astrology as to when it faced the constellation of Leo.

"you could have a vast, otherwise unemployed population working on the structures for a number of months each year."

This is the bit that I cannot fathom, this is impossible in modern construction - there is not a single constructor internationally that could create the great pyramid, regardless of cost within a lifetime, we don't have the machinery to lift/labour these blocks. We just do not have the science/technology.

 

[thplinth]

Maybe it is this...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3169595/Is-oldest-evidence-written-language-Pictograms-ancient-Turkish-city-12-000-years-old.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pictogram

Edited April 26, 2017 by thplinth

[HUNTINGMcGREGOR]

22 minutes ago, phart said:

It's not him it's two geologists that say the water marks on the sphinx means it's far far older than commonly thought. The Pyramids is much more complicated and i can't be arsed typing it out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_M._Schoch

above is the main geologist in question. It's his theory from studying it, others disagree. As is common in science.

Phart, Hancock works with this guy and reflects on Schoch's opinion to back up his Hypothesis. Have you not read Hancock's books either ??

 

[phart]

Just now, HUNTINGMcGREGOR said:

Phart, Hancock works with this guy and reflects on Schoch's opinion to back up his Hypothesis. Have you not read Hancock's books either ??

 

I've read them.

Yeah but the theory is by Schoch he's the geologist,he did the field work. Hancock just wrote about his work and accompanied him, so credit goes to the scientist, not the person who popularized the work.

Shout out to Graham Hancock though

[DonnyTJS]

18 minutes ago, phart said:

 

That quote is from Lead Scientist Sweatman " Furthermore, symbolism on the pillars indicates that the long-term changes in Earth’s rotational axis was recorded at this time using an early form of writing, and that Gȍbekli Tepe was an observatory for meteors and comets."

http://maajournal.com/Issues/2017/Vol17-1/Sweatman and Tsikritsis 17(1).pdf

There's the paper.

The symbolism encoded on pillar 43, including the date stamp, the ‘sunset’ icons, the  correct
ordering  of  the  preceding  zodiacal  signs,  and the ‘H-symbols’, demonstrates an early form of proto-writing  existed  at  some  point  between10,950 BC and9,530 BC. at least for astronomical observations. Given that the concepts represented   in   the   pillar   require   communication over  very  long  timescales,  a  similar  form  of proto writing might
have been in existence for many  centuries,  and possibly millennia,  even prior   to   10,950  BC.
For   example,   there   are many instances  of  paleolithic  cave  art  involving similar animals and other repeated abstract symbols (von Petzinger, 2016).

 

 

8 minutes ago, thplinth said:

Maybe it is this...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3169595/Is-oldest-evidence-written-language-Pictograms-ancient-Turkish-city-12-000-years-old.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pictogram

Yeah, that's evidently it. When do pictures become pictograms? On that basis the Chauvet paintings are also a form of 'proto-writing' since they no doubt had some symbolic significance. However, it's not a form of 'writing' that would have either the accuracy or the flexibility to sustain an urban civilization, which was the point, made by Hancock via HuntingMcG, that I was questioning.

12 minutes ago, HUNTINGMcGREGOR said:

"you could have a vast, otherwise unemployed population working on the structures for a number of months each year."

This is the bit that I cannot fathom, this is impossible in modern construction - there is not a single constructor internationally that could create the great pyramid, regardless of cost within a lifetime, we don't have the machinery to lift/labour these blocks. We just do not have the science/technology.

 

I've never really had a problem with it (which doesn't mean it's not wrong). No one in modern construction could employ the numbers available to the fourth dynasty pyramid builders. Earthen ramps, levers, pulleys, rollers and an absolutely vast population waiting for the annual flood to recede seems to me a reasonable hypothesis.

[HUNTINGMcGREGOR]

1 minute ago, phart said:

I've read them.

Yeah but the theory is by Schoch he's the geologist,he did the field work. Hancock just wrote about his work and accompanied him, so credit goes to the scientist, not the person who popularized the work.

Shout out to Graham Hancock though

Ok. but that is what Hancock does. He uses credible specialists to support his theories and pulls it all together. I'm maybe slightly rattled that peeps would think he is a crank based on a 5 minute google. I give credit to Hancock for pulling it all together and working on his little jigsaw puzzle. Thanks for your posts, I've been on the board for almost 10 years and don't post that much, but I have always enjoyed reading what you have to say, same to Donny actually, always interesting.

[phart]

26 minutes ago, DonnyTJS said:

 

Yeah, that's evidently it. When do pictures become pictograms? On that basis the Chauvet paintings are also a form of 'proto-writing' since they no doubt had some symbolic significance. However, it's not a form of 'writing' that would have either the accuracy or the flexibility to sustain an urban civilization, which was the point, made by Hancock via HuntingMcG, that I was questioning.

 

The difference is 13000 years later scientists can "read" what Pillar 43 says, the Chauvet paintings can't be "read" can only be seen.

However i have no idea what a linguist would say, it seems maybe necessity got some people to attempt to "write" something down about a particular event. Maybe a first attempt at "writing" in a narrow sphere. To communicate ideas into the future via inanimate objects.

[phart]

The current pyramids construction theory requires a 3 tonne block to be placed every 5 minutes 24/7 for 20 years with 4000 workers. With the stone used quarried miles and miles away.

All the while aligning it to true north and keeping it in scale with larger properties of the earth.

It was built by experts not unemployed slaves.

Edited April 26, 2017 by phart

[thplinth]

Also if the pictograph dates the comet fragments strike back to 10,950 BC and Gobleki is dated from 'around 9000 BC' does it indicate the carver of it was able to work the image of the night sky back to what it would have looked like at the appropriate date of the cataclysm (10,950 BC)? So being able to reconstruct the night sky as it looked 2000 years before your were born approximately?

And / or that a very specific memory of that date had been passed down for the 2000 since it happened... questions questions.

It is just going to keep expanding. All ready so much fascination and only 5% I think is excavated. It is going to be mind blowing but I do wish they would go a little bit faster. There is supposed to be another 8 enclosures with 200+ stones and that is just what they can detect from the surface using radar and shit. They are deliberately leaving many to future generations of architects but I mean really...

[phart]

22 minutes ago, thplinth said:

 All ready so much fascination and only 5% I think is excavated. It is going to be mind blowing but I do wish they would go a little bit faster.

Was going to point this out. What else is there.

It's near Syria though and Syria itself has ancient sites that folk would like to study but since we have bands of western sponsored jihadis interfering in local politics we can't at the moment. Iraq also fecked for such things atm, with museums being looted and destroyed.

 

 

[thplinth]

52 minutes ago, phart said:

Was going to point this out. What else is there.

I only skimmed it but they are quite open about where it is speculative. They do seem quite confident about pillar 43. I guess it comes down to how well they believe they have mapped these star asterisms to the real constellations. That what seems to be driving the confidence in that particular conclusion.

So to create the date stamp using the sky 2000 years before GT was built they would have to understand earth's precession I guess.

http://maajournal.com/Issues/2017/Vol17-1/Sweatman and Tsikritsis 17(1).pdf

4. CONCLUSIONS
According to the catastrophist viewpoint, the
Younger-Dryas event was probably caused by a
cometary encounter with the Taurid complex. Can
we now confirm this? No. What we can say is the
following;
 It is very likely that the people of GT had been
keen astronomers for a very long time, and
the low-relief carvings of animals (except
snakes) symbolise specific asterisms. Pillar 43
very likely refers to the date 10,950 BC ± 250
yrs.
 There is a consistent interpretation of much
other symbolism at GT in terms of the YD
event as a cometary encounter, which supports
the theory of coherent catastrophism.
But we cannot be as confident in this proposal
as the proposal for the date stamp. Other evidence
from further excavations at GT and
other sites may help to clarify this. Evidence
linking GT to coherent catastrophism is as follows;
1) A great deal of physical evidence from a wide range
of earth sciences appears to support the proposal that a
major event occurred around 10,890 BC. A leading
candidate for this event is a cometary encounter consistent
with coherent catastrophism. The date stamp on
pillar 43 corresponds closely with this date.
2) That the people of GT remained interested in this
date even several millennia later suggests it was a
very important event that had a significant impact
on their cultural development.
3) The headless man on pillar 43 indicates the event
lead to loss of life.
4) Symbolism on pillar 18 is consistent with an event
of cosmic origin. The fox symbolism, in particular,
suggests a cosmic event originating from a specific
position. The belt-buckle, ‘eclipse’ and snake symbols
are consistent with a cometary encounter. But
the symbolism on pillar 18 might be consistent with
other astronomical interpretations as well that we
have not considered.
DECODING GÖBEKLI TEPE: WHAT DOES THE FOX SAY? 245
Mediterranean Archaeology and Archaeometry, Vol. 17, No 1, (2017), pp. 233-250
5) Pillars 2 and 38 indicate a special interest in the
Taurid meteor stream, the same meteor stream proposed
responsible for the YD event and the current
period of coherent catastrophism. But the series of
asterisms on these pillars might be consistent with
other astronomical interpretations as well that we
have not considered, or they might be entirely random
sequences with no meaning. The statistics of
the match certainly favours the Taurid meteor
stream hypothesis, but they are not strong enough to
be certain about this.
6) When all this evidence is considered together, it
makes a strong case for the YD event as a cometary
encounter, and hence for coherent catastrophism,
that had a profound effect on the people at GT.
The proposal that Göbekli Tepe was, among other
things, an observatory for monitoring the night sky,
especially the Taurid meteor stream, because of the
disastrous consequences of the YD event appears to
be the most complete and consistent interpretation
of its symbolism yet developed. Certainly, no other
interpretation has the level of statistical support described
here.
The implications of coherent catastrophism are
profound, both for how we interpret evidence of
past events (archaeology, geology, anthropology,
climatology etc.), and potentially for how we plan
for the future. Much more archaeology waits to be
performed at Göbekli Tepe and neighbouring sites
like Karahan Tepe. It will be very interesting to see
how the additional evidence from these sites accumulates.
Meanwhile, it seems prudent to take coherent
catastrophism seriously.

Edited April 26, 2017 by thplinth

[thplinth]

Hmmm I can see why they believe this if this is correct...

Huh some speculation that the three 'handbags' are the comet fragments... 

 

Edited April 26, 2017 by thplinth

[Toepoke]

Seeing as this thread is about objects crashing into planets, what a photo this is from Cassini about to take a dive into Saturn...

[biffer]

The whole thing about the younger dryas / cometary fragments / links to human development are fascinating. It's the idea that rather than a cataclysm putting the brakes on human development, the hypothesis that the cometary impact caused a climate change which may have actually kick started what we think of now as modern civilisation (I.e. What followed on from the first agriculture and the first villages, leading to individual specialisation rather than generalist skills, which in turn leads to organised religion and 'rulers') is incredibly interesting. The whole thing about the swastika being based on the view of a comet coming at you head on is an idea that grabs the attention as well.

[thplinth]

They have software now than can chart the stars in the sky from any position on earth all the way back in time (I am sure it has limits, not all the way back but you get the gist).

I think this was how Hancock said he worked it out. They ran the real constellation patterns against the asterisms patterns and then statistically you can achieve a high degree of confidence that you have a match. I think this is the basis of their science and why the are so confident. If you argue with it I suspect you will lose.

As i said many posts ago. I doubted this when I read it in Hancock's book. But now I am thinking there is something to it. 

[CumbernauldJag]

His documentary 'Quest for the lost civilisation' is on All4. I watched it on sunday and he talks about the pyramids in Egypt, Angkor Wat in Cambodia and some Mayan temples all being laid out to mirror constellations as they appeared in the sky in 10500BC. 

Also briefly mentioned the sphinx being older than we think.