Ally Bongo Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 14 hours ago, Nobby said: Sturgeon wouldve done just the same to Corbyn if the situation allowed, Would she ? The SNP said prior to the 2015 and 2017 elections that they were prepared to work with other parties that were in favour of progressive policies That was it There was no suggestion of financial backhanders to get them to do that The Tory propaganda of the day inferred that people would be paying for those policies and not for cash windfalls for Scotland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exile Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 The unionists put anti indy at the heart of their campaigns and gained votes but lost the election. The SNP downplayed indy, and lost votes, while winning the election. So 'what Scotland said' is not so clear - just as with the UK result - but only in Scotland does the media think they know what the electorate said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Craig Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 Definitely, the deal as good as throws the Good Friday agreement out of the window. Anyone who cannot admit that is either stubborn, stupid and blind. The British government acted as an arbitrer or go-between by parties in Northern Ireland but that is no longer the case as they have hooked up with one of those parties - the DUP. It is akin to a union rep being promoted to management - they stop being that union rep as they sit alongside those that workers are often in dispilute with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaid Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 8 hours ago, Ally Bongo said: Would she ? The SNP said prior to the 2015 and 2017 elections that they were prepared to work with other parties that were in favour of progressive policies That was it There was no suggestion of financial backhanders to get them to do that The Tory propaganda of the day inferred that people would be paying for those policies and not for cash windfalls for Scotland TBF, I don't think the DUP published their price before this - or any - GE either. Its pretty naive to think that if the SNP had held the balance of power with a potential Labour government then they wouldn't have looked to secure a deal that was beneficial to Scotland in return for that support. I'd say that the only difference would have been at instead of increased direct funding that they would have been looking at increased devolution of powers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toepoke Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, exile said: The unionists put anti indy at the heart of their campaigns and gained votes but lost the election. The SNP downplayed indy, and lost votes, while winning the election. So 'what Scotland said' is not so clear - just as with the UK result - but only in Scotland does the media think they know what the electorate said. It was interesting reading the front pages of the papers today. Some had independence kicked into the long grass, others said the debate had been "reset", while a couple had the SNP not listening and carrying on regardless (Express and the Mail obviously there). Debate on GMS there: Jackson Carlaw: "The SNP lost seats over the second referendum which was the central issue of the election campaign". Gary Robertson: "Only because you made it" Edited June 28, 2017 by Toepoke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 Going to enjoy the slow decline of Sturgeon. Great campaigner and protester. Mediocre government minister and First Minister. NHS, Education, tax, economy amongst many things that are always 2nd best to the option of her being Queen. The left are questioning her policies and sincerity. Flying around in a helicopter, living in a 4 bed house with no mortgage and combined income of £250k. Govanhill gets worse and worse where her constituency office is based. The right are emboldened as tax is becoming a bigger question in Scottish politics and middle classes are recognising education standards are slipping in schools and universities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orraloon Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 12 minutes ago, Alan said: Going to enjoy the slow decline of Sturgeon. Great campaigner and protester. Mediocre government minister and First Minister. NHS, Education, tax, economy amongst many things that are always 2nd best to the option of her being Queen. The left are questioning her policies and sincerity. Flying around in a helicopter, living in a 4 bed house with no mortgage and combined income of £250k. Govanhill gets worse and worse where her constituency office is based. The right are emboldened as tax is becoming a bigger question in Scottish politics and middle classes are recognising education standards are slipping in schools and universities. She can't be Queen, ya daftie. Your pal Rapeclauseruth has already crowned herself "Tory Queen of Scots" http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/02/ruth-davidson-tory-queen-scots/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbcmfc Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 33 minutes ago, Alan said: Flying around in a helicopter, living in a 4 bed house with no mortgage and combined income of £250k. Govanhill gets worse and worse where her constituency office is based. The right are emboldened as tax is becoming a bigger question in Scottish politics and middle classes are recognising education standards are slipping in schools and universities. Is she supposed to share a slum with some Roma in Govanhill? Ive no idea what her husband does (in fact, I'm only assuming she has one). I think she lives quite near me, they're nice houses, but nothing spectacular. I don't think you can grudge someone of her stature a nice house, especially if her husband could probably afford to live there himself anyway. Theres a lot of things you could criticise NS for, but having a house is probably even less relevant than her lego hair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parklife Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 6 minutes ago, sbcmfc said: Is she supposed to share a slum with some Roma in Govanhill? Ive no idea what her husband does (in fact, I'm only assuming she has one). I think she lives quite near me, they're nice houses, but nothing spectacular. I don't think you can grudge someone of her stature a nice house, especially if her husband could probably afford to live there himself anyway. Theres a lot of things you could criticise NS for, but having a house is probably even less relevant than her lego hair. Her husband is chairman of the SNP (i think?). Peter Murrell. It is indeed a bizarre rant from Alan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaid Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 12 minutes ago, Parklife said: Her husband is chairman of the SNP (i think?). Peter Murrell. It is indeed a bizarre rant from Alan. Chief Executive rather than Chairman to be exact. I thought it was a pretty standard rant from Alan. It did lack a lot of the usual single word sentences though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanderark14 Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 Alan in being clueless shocker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParisInAKilt Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 Impressive amount of effort trying to wind folk up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thplinth Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 (edited) He seems to be have gone into tit overdrive after his party ruined the country. Combined income, no mortgage, 4 bedrooms... oh reeeally. FFS what a clown. Just surprised he managed to avoid the hilarious staccato sentences that in no way make him look like a berk. Seems absolutely delighted at the tories failure for some reason... wonder what it could be. Personally I am really looking forward to the next London riots... then we will get to see the full savagery of the tory cuts on the police and fire service. Would'nt want to be living there when it inevitably kicks off again. Edited June 28, 2017 by thplinth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParisInAKilt Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 Look it's fine if you hate the government and don't think it's fair that they have a big house etc but apply that same principle to all politicians if you want to be taken seriously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thplinth Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 Decided to have a look at the 2017 manifesto to see what exactly they said on independence and boy was it one shit read (generally). The SNP do seem to be going down the whole identity politics route. Good luck with that. Plus very easy to see why every right leaning voter who may have supported them deserted them at this election. Seems like they are more anti tory than having any kind of clear vision for themselves. It is all 'supporting' 'protecting' and 'safeguarding'. Plus a bunch of virtue signalling pish most of it without any real substance. Reminds of the democrats in the US right now. Lack of leadership coming through and lack of real message anymore. Independence has left a void that cannot be replaced. NS has definitely taken the party in the wrong direction IMHO. We are starting to see the dividends of it and I expect it will accelerate now (and I welcome it). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
min Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 3 minutes ago, thplinth said: Decided to have a look at the 2017 manifesto to see what exactly they said on independence and boy was it one shit read (generally). The SNP do seem to be going down the whole identity politics route. Good luck with that. Plus very easy to see why every right leaning voter who may have supported them deserted them at this election. Seems like they are more anti tory than having any kind of clear vision for themselves. It is all 'supporting' 'protecting' and 'safeguarding'. Plus a bunch of virtue signalling pish most of it without any real substance. Reminds of the democrats in the US right now. Lack of leadership coming through and lack of real message anymore. Independence has left a void that cannot be replaced. NS has definitely taken the party in the wrong direction IMHO. We are starting to see the dividends of it and I expect it will accelerate now (and I welcome it). Agree with a lot of that. Someone wrote on here recently that the SNP have attracted socialists as opposed to creating nationalists and that could be pretty close to the truth. The centre right electorate is far larger in Scotland than many believe - a fair chunk of those would sympathetic to independence. Ultimately, Yes voters from 2014 need to ask themselves which would the they prefer to live in - an independent Scotland with Ruth Davidson as PM or a UK led by Jeremy Corbyn. Only when the majority would prefer the former is independence a certainty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thplinth Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, min said: Agree with a lot of that. Someone wrote on here recently that the SNP have attracted socialists as opposed to creating nationalists and that could be pretty close to the truth. The centre right electorate is far larger in Scotland than many believe - a fair chunk of those would sympathetic to independence. Ultimately, Yes voters from 2014 need to ask themselves which would the they prefer to live in - an independent Scotland with Ruth Davidson as PM or a UK led by Jeremy Corbyn. Only when the majority would prefer the former is independence a certainty. Nicely put... If you compare the 2011 Manifesto and the 2017 the gulf in quality is very evident. Whoever produced that 2017 one need the boot as it is shocking in comparison, unfocused, waffly, repetitive with a blah blah feeling after page 1 and generally piss poor (ok may have been at short notice but still...). It lost a lot of common sense structure v 2011 and it feels chaotic. Even the pictures adorning it feel 'diversity' tick box formulaic. The whole anti tory stuff running all the way through the 2017 one must have gifted them a large amount of votes, totally stupid defining yourself as the protector against another party, just asking for it. Thankfully most folk don't read them but I think it reveals a loss of quality in the SNP decision making IMHO. 2017 2011 edit: I mean FFS it does not even have a table of contents, trying to be too clever and instead ending up with a dogs dinner which is all over the place. Edited June 28, 2017 by thplinth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thplinth Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 (edited) The 2017 Manifesto hardly mentions independence and when it does it is only in reference to the referendum, there is zero attempt to make the case for it, none that I noticed. The 2011 one on the page entitled 'Independence' has the opening paragraph... Independence is about making Scotland more successful. At its most basic, it is the ability to take our own decisions, in the same way as other countries. Scotland is a society and a nation. No one cares more about Scotland’s success than the people who live here and that, ultimately, is why independence is the best choice for our future. Now even then this was near the end on page 28. FFS what is that all about... This needs to be on page 1 as the SNP's core goal now and forfhuckingever. A vote for the SNP is primarily a vote in support of this goal, make it loud and clear. No apologies, no fhucking about and a big fhuck off to any khunt who does not like it. Start arguing the case for self determination, get away from this EU return argument which is actually an argument against self determination. You are not going to fool people with that argument and it was very grating seeing the SNP and the anti YES opposition essentially switch argumentative hats during the Brexit campaigns. It was borderline bizarre. Jim Fairlie was right in a lot of the things he was saying on here years ago. Independence is not just a meaningless banner it actually has to deliver the reins to us not move them from Westminster to Brussels. See what our true support is and then take it from there building from a real foundation this time. It is a long way away sadly as I think the SNP are going in the opposite direction. Edited June 28, 2017 by thplinth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParisInAKilt Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 3 minutes ago, thplinth said: The 2017 Manifesto hardly mentions independence and when it does it is only in reference to the referendum, there is zero attempt to make the case for it, none that I noticed. The 2011 one on the page entitled 'Independence' has the opening paragraph... Independence is about making Scotland more successful. At its most basic, it is the ability to take our own decisions, in the same way as other countries. Scotland is a society and a nation. No one cares more about Scotland’s success than the people who live here and that, ultimately, is why independence is the best choice for our future. Now even then this was near the end on page 28. FFS what is that all about... This needs to be on page 1 as the SNP's core goal now and forfhuckingever. A vote for the SNP is primarily a vote in support of this goal, make it loud and clear. No apologies, no fhucking about and a big fhuck off to any khunt who does not like it. Start arguing the case for self determination, get away from this EU return argument which is actually an argument against self determination. You are not going to fool people with that argument and it was very grating seeing the SNP and the anti YES opposition essentially switch argumentative hats during the Brexit campaigns. It was borderline bizarre. Jim Fairlie was right in a lot of the things he was saying on here years ago. Independence is not just a meaningless banner it actually has to deliver the reins to us not move them from Westminster to Brussels. See what our true support is and then take it from there building from a real foundation this time. It is a long way away sadly as I think the SNP are going in the opposite direction. Independence in the EU is the biggest crock of shite, and I'll admit to saying that in 2014. Talk to the vast majority of SNP / independence voters and they'll mention austerity, why then you'd want to be in the EU. Guess that's something that politicians and the media don't talk about much, if at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 3 hours ago, thplinth said: He seems to be have gone into tit overdrive after his party ruined the country. Combined income, no mortgage, 4 bedrooms... oh reeeally. FFS what a clown. Just surprised he managed to avoid the hilarious staccato sentences that in no way make him look like a berk. Seems absolutely delighted at the tories failure for some reason... wonder what it could be. Personally I am really looking forward to the next London riots... then we will get to see the full savagery of the tory cuts on the police and fire service. Would'nt want to be living there when it inevitably kicks off again. If having a 4 bedroom house is a moral black eye, Alan must be drenched in sin every time he looks to his string pullers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orraloon Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 37 minutes ago, thplinth said: Nicely put... If you compare the 2011 Manifesto and the 2017 the gulf in quality is very evident. Whoever produced that 2017 one need the boot as it is shocking in comparison, unfocused, waffly, repetitive with a blah blah feeling after page 1 and generally piss poor (ok may have been at short notice but still...). It lost a lot of common sense structure v 2011 and it feels chaotic. Even the pictures adorning it feel 'diversity' tick box formulaic. The whole anti tory stuff running all the way through the 2017 one must have gifted them a large amount of votes, totally stupid defining yourself as the protector against another party, just asking for it. Thankfully most folk don't read them but I think it reveals a loss of quality in the SNP decision making IMHO. 2017 2011 edit: I mean FFS it does not even have a table of contents, trying to be too clever and instead ending up with a dogs dinner which is all over the place. Are you comparing a Westminster general election manifesto with a Holyrood election manifesto? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thplinth Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 Oh gee another great Orraloon point. 2015 was a s bad as 2017 but they could have probably written any old guff and still ended up with 56 seats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 (edited) It's the same electorate mostly. Same folk you're addressing, what parliament is pretty irrelevant. Your manifesto talks to the people not the parliament and in both cases they remain vastly the same folk. Edited June 28, 2017 by phart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thplinth Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 2010 Same paragraph near enough page 22... Why Independence? Scotland is a distinct community. Together we see ourselves as a nation and independence is the natural state for nations like ours. And as a community, we care most about our own success – we have the biggest stake in solving the problems we face, or making the most of the opportunities available to us. As a community and as a nation we are the best people for the job of making our nation the sort of place we want it to be. All mention completely gone by 2017. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orraloon Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 7 minutes ago, phart said: It's the same electorate mostly. Same folk you're addressing, what parliament is pretty irrelevant. Your manifesto talks to the people not the parliament and in both cases they remain vastly the same folk. Yes, but there will be a different emphasis on independence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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